inverarity | Harry Potter Fans Hate Harry Potter

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Harry Potter Fans Hate Harry Potter

It's not Harry Potter specific – I think this sentiment is somewhat universal across all fandoms. But I lurk in a lot of places where I never post, and I've come to the conclusion that every fandom devours itself eventually.

Now, a lot of angst over Harry Potter is the fact that the series is over, the fandom is shrinking (or moving on to Twilight and Supernatural -- sigh), and the volume of new HP fan fiction is dramatically decreasing, as is the number of readers and reviewers. The fandom will contract even further once the last movie is out. One by one, the major Harry Potter fan sites are starting to resemble Detroit -- once thriving communities, now being abandoned in droves, with many of those left behind turning the remains into a ruins. (I don't even post on the Fiction Alley forums anymore.)

Contrary to the more dismal predictions, however, I don't think the Harry Potter fandom will ever go away. Even the most obscure series, after all, have their own LJ communities and sections on fanfiction.net. And I like to remember the example of Star Trek, the fandom against which all other fandoms must inevitably be compared, the fandom that spawned fan fiction communities in the days before the Internet, during the long years in which there was no new canonical material being produced. (Also the fandom that gave us terms like "slash" and "Mary Sue," for you kids who don't know that.)

Time will tell whether Harry Potter takes its place as a true classic. Will our grandchildren still be reading Harry Potter? Will it be our generation's Narnia, or will it be our generation's Elsie Dinsmore?

That's probably a pretty bad comparison. I liked the Chronicles of Narnia well enough when I read it in elementary school (and was more inclined to take the fantasy elements at face value, even though I was quite aware that it was a Christian allegory even then), but even as a child I knew that the last book ended the series in a train wreck, figuratively as well as literally. (Well, for some of you vitriolic Deathly Hallows-haters, maybe that is a good comparison.)

Being in another one of my rambly moods, I'll share a few other series and authors that have influenced me. (I'm going to limit myself mostly to fantasy here, though I also read lots and lots of science fiction, too.)

The Dark Is Rising, by Susan Cooper. Frankly, this is a better series than Harry Potter. Will Stanton is a much grimmer boy magician than Harry Potter, and this is the first series I remember reading as a child that made me sad when I finished the last book because there wasn't any more to read. Susan Cooper really deserved to have Rowling's level of success; sadly, the 2007 film "The Seeker" bore almost no resemblance to the source material, and it sucked mightily.

Suzette Haden Elgin's Ozarker trilogy. Yes, Elgin wrote about magical Ozarkers long before I did. My Ozarkers are quite different from hers, of course, but I was undeniably influenced by her, and there are quite a few overt nods to Elgin's Ozarker trilogy in Alexandra Quick.

(I've also read some of Elgin's other works; the Native Tongue trilogy is, well, interesting in the first book, kind of absurd in the second, and incoherent in the third.)

His Dark Materials, by Philip Pullman. Some people have compared Alexandra to Lyra, but I didn't actually read these books until after I'd written Alexandra Quick and the Thorn Circle. I loved the first book, and liked the second; unfortunately, the story kind of fell apart in book three. Why do so many authors screw up their series in the last book? (The movie The Golden Compass, by the way, was really not that bad; it's unfortunate that it bombed so badly that we're not likely to ever see the rest of the series on film.)

The Lord of the Rings. I'm mentioning this one only because it would be a glaring omission. But you know what? I'll probably be pilloried by some folks, but I never actually finished the trilogy. I thought it was boring! Yes, Tolkien was an epic worldbuilder, but as a storyteller, he just did not captivate me. I'm one of those people who knows most of my Tolkien second-hand, from the movies, etc. (Also from way too much Dungeons & Dragons when I was a kid.)

Elric of Melniboné, by Michael Moorcock. Not my favorite fantasy series of all time, but I thought it was much more creative and imaginative than Tolkien. Where Tolkien mostly synthesized a lot of Germanic fairy tales and Nordic myths, Moorcock created something entirely different, including a hero who was not very nice and not very heroic, and who dies in the end. (I know Moorcock didn't invent the anti-hero, but this was one of my earliest exposures to the concept.)

I could go on, but I've run out of steam for this particular entry, and really, I just felt like posting something besides "Hey! Word count update!" (103307, btw.) Feel free to discuss your literary influences. (Has anyone besides me ever read Elgin or Susan Cooper?)

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I've read Susan Cooper and I agree - was very unhappy with the movie that completely missed the book - the series is superior to Harry Potter and is one of the best in ending well - most like Potter destroy themselves others like Modseritt (sp) keep going for far too long - I guess it is a skill lacking in most writers to end a series well on an up swing - don't recall my live journal password so will leave this annonymous

Having said that AQ is on an up swing and I am eagerly awaiting your next book - - any clue on the wait?

amsk5

finally tracked down my account

I have read Lord of the Rings and agree it is a bit slow. However, it is well worth it by the end. Susan Cooper is also a great author. as far as science Fiction, Star Wars is the only way to go in my opinion.

I don't think that HP will disappear entirely. I mean sure the fandom is decreasing but there are still communities out there doing writing and exchanges and etc.

I totally agree with you about Tolkien. I tried to read the series, but I couldn't make it past the first book. I can't really put my finger on an actual reason I didn't connect, I just couldn't...maybe it was the flow or something, I have no idea and that bothers me too. (Normally I can read something and know exactly what I like or dislike about it) I haven't read Susan Cooper but I'm going to now as well as a few other series you mentioned, so thanks for the info!

The only writer's group I'm still involved in (that originated with Harry Potter fanfiction) is really just an IRC chat where about ten of us hang out and chat all day. A few of us still write our HP fanfiction, but most of us have moved on in our lives. Hell, one of us is going to publish a book! THAT IS, IF HE EVER FINISHES IT!!! (Hope he hears me, he's only got about 4 chapters to go.)

I would say that Simon Brown (Keys of Power) has penned one of my favorite series to date. I just picked up his second series, the Chronicles of Kydan, last weekend at Windycon, and if I like it, I'll promote him to one of my favorite authors.

David Eddings, perhaps, ruined my ability to write for several years. I don't mean that figuratively. I was doing a fine job at writing, and then I picked up his Belgariad series and just...the spark went out. Not to say I didn't enjoy it, but I think it's sort of like how a smoker enjoys a cigarette. Yeah, it's great and all, but it'll kill you slowly.

I read a LOT of Raymond E. Feist, and his first dozen or so books were phenomenal imo--they were what drew me into the fantasy genre in the first place. Unfortunately, once he hit the Conclave of Shadows, it just went downhill pretty fast. First book was good, second was ok, I never even bothered with any after that.

Kristen Britain is in the middle of a 5-ish book series starting with the Green Rider. I really enjoy this series, and I think she's a very good writer. If only she wouldn't wait over 2 years between releasing books.

I keep forgetting to sign my posts.

~DarkSov

I grew up immersed in science fiction and fantasy. Long before I was playing D&D I was reading Asimov, Clarke, Heinlein and I even read Tolkein. I loved these books as a child and I actually read the entire Lord of the Rings trilogy and slugged my way through part of the Silmarillion. However, the thing you have to remember about the old masters of sci-fi is that they are the =old= masters. Lord of the Rings was first published in 1954. Standard of writings were much lower back then. If it was submitted today it wouldn't make it out of the slush pile. Sure, it has some memorable description in it, but it drags horribly. The movie version made some very good changes to clarify the plot and make the whole story flow better.

So here is my list of authors that have influenced me:

Robert A. Heinlein - his juveniles. I read many of the other great old masters of sci-fi, but I don't really like their longer works. They were much better at the short story format. Heinlein could do both well, when he was writing juveniles. He had a gift for writing teenagers, but putting them into the center of unfolding events. Best example, "Citizen of the Galaxy". His books intended for adults are completely different and mostly suck. Even his juveniles are dated and often sexist by today's standards, but I still have a nostalgic affection for them.

Larry Niven - Larry Niven writes hard science fiction and he writes it well. His sciences is sometimes out there, but plausible and it hangs togother in a consistent framework. "Ringworld" is probably the best and most characteristic introduction to his work.

Roger Zelazny - Nobody writes mythic figures better than Zelazny. He has a gift for writing characters with almost god-like powers, but making you believe in them. My personal favorite is his first Amber series starting with "Nine Princes in Amber". I didn't like the Merlin series as much and I think the role-playing game misses the point. For aspiring writers, the Amber series is also a good study for how to close a book. Each book brings Corwin to a point where he is temporarily at rest and the reader can put the book down until the next one comes out. Yet each leaves enough unsettled to keep the reader coming back.

Alan Dean Foster - Alan Dean Foster is not a great writer, but he is a great storyteller. He writes enjoyable stories that keep you turning the page. I reccomend "Spellsinger" as his most characteristic work.

Frank Herbert - Dune. Must reading for any sci-fi fan. This is a novel is ponderous at points, but it has it all, plot, characterization and world-building, all swirled together in on memorable work. Sadly this one tale became his work as he kept cranking out Dune books. They just don't stand up to the original.

Robert Jordan - The Eye of the World. In my opinion simply the best fantasy novel ever written. Sadly success went to Jordan's head and he didn't maintain this standard. The first three books are well-worth reading, but with each successive book the numbers of characters and subplot multiply and multiply. Jordan really needed a strong editor to tell him to trim back the subplots and finish the story, but no, he kept writing and expanding this one mega-story until he died. Read the first one to see how a story should be written.

Harry Turtledove - Turtledove's speciality is deeply researched alternate histories. It should come as no surprise that he has a Ph.D in history. His specialty is in Byzantine history and I think his best work is the Misplaced Legion series where a Roman army gets transported to a magical world.

Dave Duncan - Take fantasy worlds with magic that is internally consistent and logical, mix in likeable characters and strong plots. I'd suggest "The Reluctant Swordsman" as a good starting place.

Steven Gould - This is a man who writes good, "what if" stories. The best examples is his first work, "Jumper", which is a well-crafted story based on a simple question - what if you could teleport? I'm aware there is a Hollywood movie loosely inspired by this book, but it is nothing like the book.

YMMV - Your Mileage May Vary, but these are some of my favorite influences.

Keep Writing,
Miles2go

I have read Susan Cooper, and really enjoyed it. The opening chapters of The Dark Is Rising were especially good, filled with a kind of disjointed, surreal terror that made the threat seem very real.

Brandon Sanderson's stuff is pretty good character-driven fantasy. I haven't read his Wheel of Time yet, but the Mistborn trilogy was very good and I liked it a lot. Sharon Lee and Steve Miller write some very good space opera, perhaps a bit light for some people but enjoyable to read and re-read. And of course Lois McMaster Bujold is just excellent at SF and fantasy.

I didn't find Amber Spyglass at all bad. Certainly it introduced several new characters, but the plot was an evolution of the previous two books and the ending appropriate to the tone of the trilogy (i.e., sad).

His Dark Materials - I agree, except I got bored and stopped reading partway through the second book.

Lord of the Rings - Also agree. I enjoyed The Hobbit even if it'll never be a favorite of mine, but I've never finished the first book in the trilogy. I keep meaning to try to finish the whole trilogy someday though.

Someone else mentioned the Belgariad - I'm just full of agreement tonight apparently; I agree with their assessment of it as well.

A series no one's mentioned yet is Trudi Canavan's Dark Magician trilogy. I didn't like the pairing that developed in the last book, but it was an interesting read.

I also recommend Tamora Pierce's Tortall books. There's several short series set in the same world. The main characters in series play cameos in other series. I'd start with the original Lioness quartet, then move through the Immortals quartet and Protector of the Small quartets. I didn't enjoy the Trickster pair as much as the others, but it's still worth a read. I'm waiting for the last of the Provost's Dogs trilogy to come out before I judge it; I'm not the hugest fan of the diary style of writing that she's using for this series.

For Sci-Fi books, I've always enjoyed and recommended Orson Scott Card's Ender series, particularly Ender's Game, Xenocide, and Ender's Shadow. The others are okay, but not up to the same standard.

-So this is real life

Ooh! Fun topic! Here's my take on it:

I think there's two types of fans (which I shall give arbitrary names): Fan Type A, which likes the object of their fandom, pure and simple.

And Fan Type B, which both likes and dislikes the object of their fandom in equal, but intense, measure.

(Ok, it's more of a spectrum, probably, but those are maybe the extremes.)

Here are my thoughts on Fan Type B (which fascinates me because I usually am one):

I think the fans-hate-the-object-of-their-fandom phenomenon (Fan Type B) can be kind of cyclical in nature.

Personally, I take the most INTEREST in those books which I first liked and then disliked: There was something about it that really draw me in, to start with, which made me like it (in either a casual or an intense way, but also in a I-can-move-on-with-life-after-this type of way. Fan Type A). BUT THEN!! Then there was something about the story that I disagreed with which made me dislike it. In order to become a Fan Type B, I probably had to have liked the story (irrevocably!) before becoming aware of the thing that bothered me about it. (Else I would have just disliked it, and fallen off the fan spectrum altogether.) And it was usually something I irreparably hated! But by then it's too late! I'm hooked! And it's PRECISELY BECAUSE the story simultaneously entrances me and bugs me that I care so much about it in the end--which other people would call "liking" the story or being obsessed with it. I think that's the kind of fan the Star Wars guy was talking about in the article you linked. That's Fan Type B.

For me, pretty much anything I like a lot I also dislike a lot. That's why it's cyclical: I only like it that much because it bugs me that much. ironic and hard to describe. but also very realistic to life: life hurts a lot and we like stories that feel real like that, too. as much as we simultaneously hate them for it.

(This is sort of speculative, but) I think that it's when we finally sort through and solidify in our own minds what we do and don't like about a particular story that "the fandom devours itself" and dissolves away. It was the conflicting emotions that the Fan-Type-B-People had that sustained the fandom. But once that angst gets resolved (or ignored, in some cases), we free ourselves to move on. Some people move on more quickly than others... (namely, the people closer to the A side of the spectrum)

Being a B-type fan is an annoying hassle, but it's also kind of fun! it feels good to have something WORTH thinking/debating about, which is what a story with a large following usually has. I won't go into it, but I'd argue that people who like fiction are better at being Fan Type B people, and people who don't like fiction can't go that far on the spectrum when it comes to fiction because they can't take it seriously enough. (but they could for a non-fiction book)

To list a few of my Fan Type B tendencies:
Harry Potter: Strongly Liked the fantasy/magic, the "harry's someone special", the epic save-the-world, and the nothing-was-as-it-seemed,so-I-need-to-reread-every-book aspects. Strongly Disliked the trauma of the numerous character deaths, Snape, Dumbledore's euthanasia, and the way Dumbledore manipulated Harry all along.

Lord of the Rings (yeah, I read all 3 and the Hobbit AND the Silmarillion! But I'm only commenting on the trilogy itself): Strongly Liked the epic save-the-world-ness, the poetic beauty of the language Tolkien often used in conjunction with the world he created. STRONGLY Disliked that Frodo doesn't "heal" in the end. :(

~Aranel Alasse~

Ok, me again (~Aranel Alasse~). On second thought (after re-reading my post and especially my list at the end), maybe I'm just weird, and I was really describing Fan Types A and Z. :) (Me being the Fan Type Z.) Most fans are probably not really that intense about it. (so that would be Fan type M or something, right?) It's not really as deep for them, and the things they take issue with are more mundane (like whether this or that was out of character or whatever.) (and the Fan Type Z's like me probably just need counseling. ;) lol Well, I guess fan forums can suffice in a pinch. ;) hehe)

Took two attempts to read LOTR but enjoyed it once I got into it. I do not agree with Miles2go that writing is better now and LOTR would not make it today. It would not have been written in that style today. People expressed themselves differently, more expressively in my opinion. Today people do not have enough patience to sit down and imagine a world as described in LOTR. They need movies to help their imagination along. Nothing to do with higher or lower standards - just a matter of different times!

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Harry Potter Fans Hate Harry Potter

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Total agreement.

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My influences

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The Fandom spectrum

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re Miles2go comment