So it's not even purely historical or theoretical from my POV.
Trust me, my friend, this isn't purely historical or theoretical for any oppressed group.
You know what? I don't let it dominate my life, and I don't imagine that I get any special rights or consideration for it.
I'm not suggesting that anyone get any special rights. The only special "considerations" I uphold are ones based on the equal respect everyone deserves.
But there is literally no way to make this fair, as both the oppressors and oppressed are usually dead, often long dead, in this sort of situation.
There are people being oppressed right now as we speak, so please quit the "But everyone's dead and there's nothing we can do!" shtick.
Ancient historical unfairnessess are inameliorable.
*bzzzt* Sorry, this is factually incorrect. Try again?
All the people who are alive now can do is overcome their lingering consequences as best they can, and this means learning to be tough and determined,
Oh for the love of all that is holy, give me a fucking break. People cannot overcome centuries of oppression through strength of will. Life is not anime where you get to power a giant robot with your courage. Sexism and racism will not die just in case women and minorities grow thicker skin. I can't believe we're even debating this.
not learning to be whiny and demanding, because the former route leads to personal pride; the latter route leads to eternal dependence on Big Daddy State Justice.
Let me get this straight: In Jordan179 World, asking that people not play into centuries-old tropes of oppression is being whiny and demanding, and will result in totalitarian socialism. Makes sense.
(Me) In other words, you are saying that the responsibility for overcoming a long history of oppression lies with the oppressed groups themselves.
Yep.
Wow, it sure is great to be a white male, huh? Not only do we get to benefit from centuries of oppressing non-white males, but we don't even have to do anything to ameliorate the consequences of that oppression! Good thing there isn't a hell, am I right?
I'm sorry if this reality bothers you. Would you like to board the crosstime machine and emigrate to some more congenial reality, possibly ones with different human natures?
Haha, "human nature," that's rich. You may be right that white men will never make up for all the shit that's been done in the past, but if so that isn't because of "human nature." It's because people like you don't want to face the facts of their own privilege.
That's nice. Since I'm not one of the "oppressors", save by tautological claim, and indeed in most cases the actual oppressors are either long-dead or very old by now, that diffuses the responsibility very nicely.
You are benefiting from the oppression right now. I'm given to understand that in a legal context that means some of the responsibility of the crime falls upon you. Of course, the same holds true for me as well. The difference is that I'm not trying to pour salt on the wound.
Consider your own life, though. How far have you ever gotten in achieving any end by claiming that someone else is responsible for your own situation?
If it's actually true that someone else was responsible for my situation? Pretty damn far, actually. That's kind of what the entire criminal justice system is based on, after all.
And how far, instead, have you gotten when you took responsiblity for your own life and began working to improve it -- not by petitioning other people for help, but by working hard and improving yourself?
Not to be all "Godwin's Law"-ish, but do you think Trayvon Martin's mistake was that he didn't "take responsibility for his own life"--well, when he still had it at least?
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Re: Victims
Date: 2012-04-10 01:32 am (UTC)Trust me, my friend, this isn't purely historical or theoretical for any oppressed group.
You know what? I don't let it dominate my life, and I don't imagine that I get any special rights or consideration for it.
I'm not suggesting that anyone get any special rights. The only special "considerations" I uphold are ones based on the equal respect everyone deserves.
But there is literally no way to make this fair, as both the oppressors and oppressed are usually dead, often long dead, in this sort of situation.
http://www.amptoons.com/blog/files/mcintosh.html
There are people being oppressed right now as we speak, so please quit the "But everyone's dead and there's nothing we can do!" shtick.
Ancient historical unfairnessess are inameliorable.
*bzzzt* Sorry, this is factually incorrect. Try again?
All the people who are alive now can do is overcome their lingering consequences as best they can, and this means learning to be tough and determined,
Oh for the love of all that is holy, give me a fucking break. People cannot overcome centuries of oppression through strength of will. Life is not anime where you get to power a giant robot with your courage. Sexism and racism will not die just in case women and minorities grow thicker skin. I can't believe we're even debating this.
not learning to be whiny and demanding, because the former route leads to personal pride; the latter route leads to eternal dependence on Big Daddy State Justice.
Let me get this straight: In Jordan179 World, asking that people not play into centuries-old tropes of oppression is being whiny and demanding, and will result in totalitarian socialism. Makes sense.
(Me) In other words, you are saying that the responsibility for overcoming a long history of oppression lies with the oppressed groups themselves.
Yep.
Wow, it sure is great to be a white male, huh? Not only do we get to benefit from centuries of oppressing non-white males, but we don't even have to do anything to ameliorate the consequences of that oppression! Good thing there isn't a hell, am I right?
I'm sorry if this reality bothers you. Would you like to board the crosstime machine and emigrate to some more congenial reality, possibly ones with different human natures?
Haha, "human nature," that's rich. You may be right that white men will never make up for all the shit that's been done in the past, but if so that isn't because of "human nature." It's because people like you don't want to face the facts of their own privilege.
That's nice. Since I'm not one of the "oppressors", save by tautological claim, and indeed in most cases the actual oppressors are either long-dead or very old by now, that diffuses the responsibility very nicely.
You are benefiting from the oppression right now. I'm given to understand that in a legal context that means some of the responsibility of the crime falls upon you. Of course, the same holds true for me as well. The difference is that I'm not trying to pour salt on the wound.
Consider your own life, though. How far have you ever gotten in achieving any end by claiming that someone else is responsible for your own situation?
If it's actually true that someone else was responsible for my situation? Pretty damn far, actually. That's kind of what the entire criminal justice system is based on, after all.
And how far, instead, have you gotten when you took responsiblity for your own life and began working to improve it -- not by petitioning other people for help, but by working hard and improving yourself?
Not to be all "Godwin's Law"-ish, but do you think Trayvon Martin's mistake was that he didn't "take responsibility for his own life"--well, when he still had it at least?