Ancient historical unfairnessess are inameliorable.
*bzzzt* Sorry, this is factually incorrect. Try again?
How do you ameliorate them? Both the oppressors and the victims are mostly dead: we in the West live today in the most racially and sexually equal society the world has ever known. Punishing the descendants of oppressors to reward the descendants of the oppressed doesn't help the original oppressed and oppressors. All it does is to sustain the animosities. And in fact such amelioration is utterly impossible in terms of the sexual oppression of women by men, for the obvious reason that everyone is equally descended from both men and women.
Wow, it sure is great to be a white male, huh? Not only do we get to benefit from centuries of oppressing non-white males ...
You're assuming that oppression benefits the oppressors. While one might imagine this to be so, it often isn't in the longer run, because there is usually an effort which must be made to oppress, which detracts from benefits that might otherwise be gained through free and mutually-benefitting exchange.
Classic American case: the white plantation owners of the prewar South certainly benefitted in the short run from slavery -- until it led directly to the Civil War, and to the South's own inability to win because slavery had crippled her own culture. Those white plantation owners paid the price of their own oppressiveness for decades, in both blood and treasure.
Was even worse for the black slaves and later former slaves, but just because the blacks had it worse doesn't mean that the whites had it better than they would have had it if slavery had NEVER EXISTED.
That's nice. Since I'm not one of the "oppressors", save by tautological claim, and indeed in most cases the actual oppressors are either long-dead or very old by now, that diffuses the responsibility very nicely.
You are benefiting from the oppression right now. I'm given to understand that in a legal context that means some of the responsibility of the crime falls upon you.
Crimes require specific perpetrators and victims. Whom, specifically, have I victimized?
Otherwise, your concept of a "crime" is a free-floating abstraction which can never be punished nor repaid. But that's ok, because you say
Of course, the same holds true for me as well. The difference is that I'm not trying to pour salt on the wound.
which means that you aren't accepting any punishment or offering any restitution either, but you can feel morally superior about it. And, of course, superior to the "oppressed" groups, who don't get to make your noble choice. White Man's Burden, indeed :D
Consider your own life, though. How far have you ever gotten in achieving any end by claiming that someone else is responsible for your own situation?
If it's actually true that someone else was responsible for my situation? Pretty damn far, actually. That's kind of what the entire criminal justice system is based on, after all.
In that case you accuse or prosecute the particular individual(s) who have hurt you and try to get restitution from them. However, you are talking about nebulous groups here, rather than particular individuals, and in consequence the assignment of responsiblity to others can never be resolved, and all that one is left with on the part of the members of the victim groups foolish enough to buy your argument is a general sense of "the world owes me something."
That attitude never leads to success.
Not to be all "Godwin's Law"-ish, but do you think Trayvon Martin's mistake was that he didn't "take responsibility for his own life"--well, when he still had it at least?
Well, yes -- if he hadn't decided to double back and physically attack Zimmerman, Martin would be alive today.
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Re: Victims
Date: 2012-04-10 01:53 am (UTC)*bzzzt* Sorry, this is factually incorrect. Try again?
How do you ameliorate them? Both the oppressors and the victims are mostly dead: we in the West live today in the most racially and sexually equal society the world has ever known. Punishing the descendants of oppressors to reward the descendants of the oppressed doesn't help the original oppressed and oppressors. All it does is to sustain the animosities. And in fact such amelioration is utterly impossible in terms of the sexual oppression of women by men, for the obvious reason that everyone is equally descended from both men and women.
Wow, it sure is great to be a white male, huh? Not only do we get to benefit from centuries of oppressing non-white males ...
You're assuming that oppression benefits the oppressors. While one might imagine this to be so, it often isn't in the longer run, because there is usually an effort which must be made to oppress, which detracts from benefits that might otherwise be gained through free and mutually-benefitting exchange.
Classic American case: the white plantation owners of the prewar South certainly benefitted in the short run from slavery -- until it led directly to the Civil War, and to the South's own inability to win because slavery had crippled her own culture. Those white plantation owners paid the price of their own oppressiveness for decades, in both blood and treasure.
Was even worse for the black slaves and later former slaves, but just because the blacks had it worse doesn't mean that the whites had it better than they would have had it if slavery had NEVER EXISTED.
That's nice. Since I'm not one of the "oppressors", save by tautological claim, and indeed in most cases the actual oppressors are either long-dead or very old by now, that diffuses the responsibility very nicely.
You are benefiting from the oppression right now. I'm given to understand that in a legal context that means some of the responsibility of the crime falls upon you.
Crimes require specific perpetrators and victims. Whom, specifically, have I victimized?
Otherwise, your concept of a "crime" is a free-floating abstraction which can never be punished nor repaid. But that's ok, because you say
Of course, the same holds true for me as well. The difference is that I'm not trying to pour salt on the wound.
which means that you aren't accepting any punishment or offering any restitution either, but you can feel morally superior about it. And, of course, superior to the "oppressed" groups, who don't get to make your noble choice. White Man's Burden, indeed :D
Consider your own life, though. How far have you ever gotten in achieving any end by claiming that someone else is responsible for your own situation?
If it's actually true that someone else was responsible for my situation? Pretty damn far, actually. That's kind of what the entire criminal justice system is based on, after all.
In that case you accuse or prosecute the particular individual(s) who have hurt you and try to get restitution from them. However, you are talking about nebulous groups here, rather than particular individuals, and in consequence the assignment of responsiblity to others can never be resolved, and all that one is left with on the part of the members of the victim groups foolish enough to buy your argument is a general sense of "the world owes me something."
That attitude never leads to success.
Not to be all "Godwin's Law"-ish, but do you think Trayvon Martin's mistake was that he didn't "take responsibility for his own life"--well, when he still had it at least?
Well, yes -- if he hadn't decided to double back and physically attack Zimmerman, Martin would be alive today.