Helping out people who still suffer from that oppression today would help a lot. (I'm not advocating reparations because poor white people are also suffering from the long history of classism in this county. Rather, I'm advocating welfare.)
Both the oppressors and the victims are mostly dead: we in the West live today in the most racially and sexually equal society the world has ever known.
And yet we're still very very far away from having true racial and sexual equality.
Classic American case: the white plantation owners of the prewar South certainly benefitted in the short run from slavery -- until it led directly to the Civil War, and to the South's own inability to win because slavery had crippled her own culture.
True. But the majority of white plantation owners who ever lived luckily (for them) died before the Civil War occurred. So while I agree oppression only helps in "the short run," that short run can oftentimes be really damn long.
Also both of us are right now benefiting from the oppression of non-white males and we will likely never pay the price for that (at least, not an economic price). So there's that.
Crimes require specific perpetrators and victims. Whom, specifically, have I victimized?
It's not about you. Stop thinking about this in terms of individual people; sexism and racism has never been about this.
The deal is this: Our current society is set up to favor whites over blacks and men over women. No one is personally at fault for this--there's no evil cabal of white men running the world. It's the result of centuries of oppression. The finger of blame can only be pointed at the society as a whole, not at any actual individual person.
I am not saying that you are personally at fault for racism and sexism. I am not saying that you are personally a racist or sexist (although you probably are, as am I, because we grew up in a racist and sexist society and it's damn hard to get away from that). I am saying that you, me, and every other white male benefits from living in the society that we do, and just because we did not ourselves cause this state of affairs does not mean we have no responsibility to try to end it.
which means that you aren't accepting any punishment or offering any restitution either, but you can feel morally superior about it. And, of course, superior to the "oppressed" groups, who don't get to make your noble choice.
Please get off your high horse. I freely admit I haven't done nearly enough to help ameliorate the situation. That's a personal failing. But again, at least I'm not trying to make the situation actively worse.
and all that one is left with on the part of the members of the victim groups foolish enough to buy your argument is a general sense of "the world owes me something."
That attitude never leads to success.
Actually it oftentimes does. Ever read/hear Martin Luther King's "I Have a Dream" speech? Remember the dominant metaphor in it?
Well, yes -- if he hadn't decided to double back and physically attack Zimmerman, Martin would be alive today.
Aaaaand this conversation is over. Have a nice day.
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Re: Victims
Date: 2012-04-10 02:04 am (UTC)Helping out people who still suffer from that oppression today would help a lot. (I'm not advocating reparations because poor white people are also suffering from the long history of classism in this county. Rather, I'm advocating welfare.)
Both the oppressors and the victims are mostly dead: we in the West live today in the most racially and sexually equal society the world has ever known.
And yet we're still very very far away from having true racial and sexual equality.
Classic American case: the white plantation owners of the prewar South certainly benefitted in the short run from slavery -- until it led directly to the Civil War, and to the South's own inability to win because slavery had crippled her own culture.
True. But the majority of white plantation owners who ever lived luckily (for them) died before the Civil War occurred. So while I agree oppression only helps in "the short run," that short run can oftentimes be really damn long.
Also both of us are right now benefiting from the oppression of non-white males and we will likely never pay the price for that (at least, not an economic price). So there's that.
Crimes require specific perpetrators and victims. Whom, specifically, have I victimized?
It's not about you. Stop thinking about this in terms of individual people; sexism and racism has never been about this.
The deal is this: Our current society is set up to favor whites over blacks and men over women. No one is personally at fault for this--there's no evil cabal of white men running the world. It's the result of centuries of oppression. The finger of blame can only be pointed at the society as a whole, not at any actual individual person.
I am not saying that you are personally at fault for racism and sexism. I am not saying that you are personally a racist or sexist (although you probably are, as am I, because we grew up in a racist and sexist society and it's damn hard to get away from that). I am saying that you, me, and every other white male benefits from living in the society that we do, and just because we did not ourselves cause this state of affairs does not mean we have no responsibility to try to end it.
which means that you aren't accepting any punishment or offering any restitution either, but you can feel morally superior about it. And, of course, superior to the "oppressed" groups, who don't get to make your noble choice.
Please get off your high horse. I freely admit I haven't done nearly enough to help ameliorate the situation. That's a personal failing. But again, at least I'm not trying to make the situation actively worse.
and all that one is left with on the part of the members of the victim groups foolish enough to buy your argument is a general sense of "the world owes me something."
That attitude never leads to success.
Actually it oftentimes does. Ever read/hear Martin Luther King's "I Have a Dream" speech? Remember the dominant metaphor in it?
Well, yes -- if he hadn't decided to double back and physically attack Zimmerman, Martin would be alive today.
Aaaaand this conversation is over. Have a nice day.