Okay, this is where Claudia, Livia and co. realize that Alexandra is a 5th level magical fighter/3rd level rogue with a few levels in the badass prestige class and has survived the last few years having people and things trying to kill her, partially as an unintended consequence of people being less than strait with her.
It's where Alexandra learns that people really do care about her and love her and she should be a little less hard on them.
Good name for AQATSA would be 'Book of Revelations'.
And I think we're going to have some revelations style stuff basically take place in Larkin Mills and the threat of BSG being light and fluffy in comparision, but only the threat.
Theoretically, Alexandra could now combine both citizenship projects, hag's rights and the hunt for John Manuelitto, and so a write up on how the WJD messes up because it's ''just a hag.'' At least, that 's what Anna might do :-).
So Alexandra is keeping the truth about the barreness curse from Claudia because Claudia might be hurt by it. I wonder if Alex will realize she's doing the same thing to Claudia that Claudia did to her.
This is a response to a comment by tealterror weeks ago.
Edit: I did not read the chapter before posting this!! All of those are true. The fact remains that the rewards you get from a human/human relationship are of a much different kind than those you get from a human/cat relationship, which is all I was arguing. (And while I loved my cat, I have to say my human relationships were far more important to me.)
Agreed. But I'm with Alexandra on this one - her mother is NOT a cat. If nothing else, she can still speak and have short-term memories.
(Was that last meant to be in past tense?)
It is indeed hard to do scientific experiments in this area, lol. But yeah, except for differences in the relationship due to whatever differences the children might have (sex, looks, whatever impacts biology has on personality, etc.), I think the relationship would be the same. There's no real point arguing this - I'm sure you can cherry-pick nature-nurture proofs at least as well as I can.
To be fair to Claudia, she does try to find out what's bothering Alex--she just gives up when Alex refuses to indulge. But I'm not sure that lots of hugs and kisses and deep emotional conversations are necessary to have a family be "bonded the way they should be"...
Right, she gives up. Now I am not a mother, but if a close friend or sibling was sulking for over 3 days, I would insist on finding out what is wrong. Maybe you're right, and there are plenty of less than involved mothers around, who would ignore it. So fine, perhaps Claudia is just not the best mother figure. But I personally think she has the potential to be an excellent mother, but lacks this bond with Alex who she always knew was not truly hers (particularly when she began displaying her magic). I wouldn't experience something as family if it didn't include a certain level of warmth, but as you pointed out, maybe other families work differently.
I thought I wanted to go to law school, and it was suggested that I pick an analytic minor so I could appear well-rounded. Then I decided I didn't want to go to law school after all, but by then it was too late lol. I get that. (thought I wanted to go into clinical neuroscience, ended up only liking the research part, got research experience, thrived on statistics, and ended up in statistics-focused research field.)
Unfortunately I live by myself so that option is closed for me. :( Well that and I do almost all my work on my computer so...
I have two computers: my netbook, for fun, and my work computer. I can't let myself use one for the other.
I actually don't think a person's memories make them who they are; Aisaacs might, but I think it's far more complicated than that. However in the case of amnesia, the entire question is whether "inventing the printing press" was an action done by the post-amnesia Gutenberg too, or whether it was only done by the pre-amnesia Gutenberg.
Your philosophical hairsplitting is confusing me. :) I think my point is that a person's memories are not the only thing that make them who they are, even according to you. I believe a person's actions make them who they are, but of course they are based on memories. So we both get to the same point by opposite directions. Did that make sense?
See you in a few weeks! I hope you accomplish everything you want to accomplish during your break from the internet. :)
Thanks, yes I did, my workload is now reduced to below crisis proportions.
So I definitely feel you are starting to wrap it all up. The thing from the hodag, the dinner, the family get togethers - these are definitely leading up to something great.
The annoying thing about commenting while you are still posting the story is that you never know when something will change.
Agreed. But I'm with Alexandra on this one - her mother is NOT a cat. If nothing else, she can still speak and have short-term memories.
Sorry, but that's nowhere near enough to form anything like a meaningful relationship IMO. Parrots can do both those things.
(Was that last meant to be in past tense?)
Yeah, my cat died a while back. :(
There's no real point arguing this - I'm sure you can cherry-pick nature-nurture proofs at least as well as I can.
True enough. I tend to instinctively side on the "nurture" part when in doubt.
Right, she gives up. Now I am not a mother, but if a close friend or sibling was sulking for over 3 days, I would insist on finding out what is wrong. Maybe you're right, and there are plenty of less than involved mothers around, who would ignore it. So fine, perhaps Claudia is just not the best mother figure.
Claudia is most certainly not the best mother figure. :p There are plenty of bad mothers out there. I think Claudia's about average TBH.
But I personally think she has the potential to be an excellent mother, but lacks this bond with Alex who she always knew was not truly hers (particularly when she began displaying her magic).
That is entirely possible. But if that was the case, I don't think it's because Alex isn't hers biologically. Rather, it would more be a case of having Alex be forced on her without giving her much of a choice.
I just don't want to put myself into the position of having to say parents are necessarily less loving toward adoptive children than they would be to biological children.
I wouldn't experience something as family if it didn't include a certain level of warmth, but as you pointed out, maybe other families work differently.
It depends on what you mean by 'family.' There are plenty of families that are technically families, in that the people there are related by blood, but so lack in warmth we might want to say they're not "actually" families.
I get that. (thought I wanted to go into clinical neuroscience, ended up only liking the research part, got research experience, thrived on statistics, and ended up in statistics-focused research field.)
*nods* This is why I try not to plan my life in advance--you never know what might happen in one year, much less 10.
Your philosophical hairsplitting is confusing me. :)
Heh. You could say that the printing press was invented by "Gutenberg," just by the Gutenberg who existed before he got amnesia.
I think my point is that a person's memories are not the only thing that make them who they are, even according to you. I believe a person's actions make them who they are, but of course they are based on memories. So we both get to the same point by opposite directions. Did that make sense?
It makes perfect sense, and I agree. :)
Thanks, yes I did, my workload is now reduced to below crisis proportions.
I wonder if Livia really knows what Alex is capable of, that he has been to the lands below and the lands beyond and come back, that she is very good at dueling, among other things.
Hmmmm. I'm wondering how things will be wrapped up in 4 chapters when we still have half the semester and (presumably) some kind of final confrontation with Manuelito and/or the mummy-baby. Unless this book ends on a cliffhanger, which I have kind of been thinking will happen.
I have this theory that Alex will use AK on John (either because he kills someone close to her or to prevent him from doing so) and then will be expelled/arrested.
On the other hand, I've guessed wrong about several plot developments in this book so far. Anyway, this has been a fantastic story and I am looking forward to reading the conclusion.
One major question I now have is what John's role is in the larger story. I.e., will he lead us back to Huckstein? Is he linked to another Voldemort type? Is he a Voldemort wannabe? Will Abraham Thorn make peace with the Confederation through a common fight against John? Will there be a three way confrontation? Or is John just there so Alex can show off and learn more in the process, a subplot, a gigantic subplot?
Back to quote signs - easier than italics. "Sorry, but that's nowhere near enough to form anything like a meaningful relationship IMO. Parrots can do both those things." I guess this goes back to the other discussion about what makes a person who they are - just giving birth, taking care of Alex, and loving her, makes her her mother in my book. I accept that you don't agree. note: Anyway, you can't be telling me that Alex doesn't get to fix her mother; isn't there some kind of nondisclosure agreement for betas? :P Or, if she does fix her, she's a different person than when she was a cat (although she retains that transformative ability.)
"Yeah, my cat died a while back. :(" Sorry to hear that. Just to be clear, I was referring to the human relationship part, I was kidding. :)
"True enough. I tend to instinctively side on the "nurture" part when in doubt." I also have my instinctive reactions. See next:
"Claudia is most certainly not the best mother figure. :p There are plenty of bad mothers out there. I think Claudia's about average TBH." Average good or average all others? It's the difference between being average as a student in preschool, and being an average student in PhD Philosophy at Harvard. When you say someone is an average mother, imo it's not enough that she doesn't abuse the kid and provides a physically safe environment so that they survive childhood with most limbs intact and minimal trauma. Such a kid will still have lots of problems. An average good mother, imho, is involved with her kids' lives, and doesn't just ignore unpleasant issues. She may not handle them perfectly well, but she doesn't neglect them either. I hope this is not frustrating you, as I recognize that my instinct in this area is pretty strong, so there's really no purpose arguing it. For example, the conversation over dinner in this chapter really got on my nerves (as much as I admired Inverarity's execution.) I consider Claudia a poor mother, perhaps she did her best but it wasn't good enough. It may not have been her fault - being a bad mother doesn't mean she's a bad person - but she's not a good mother, even an average good mother.
"That is entirely possible. But if that was the case, I don't think it's because Alex isn't hers biologically. Rather, it would more be a case of having Alex be forced on her without giving her much of a choice."
Makes sense to me.
"I just don't want to put myself into the position of having to say parents are necessarily less loving toward adoptive children than they would be to biological children." Given a choice between biological children and adoptive, or just one?
"It depends on what you mean by 'family.' There are plenty of families that are technically families, in that the people there are related by blood, but so lack in warmth we might want to say they're not "actually" families." Correct.
"Heh. You could say that the printing press was invented by "Gutenberg," just by the Gutenberg who existed before he got amnesia." Got it, thanks. :)
One of my previous betas, miles2go, really, really disliked Claudia and thought she (and Archie) were terrible parents.
(I should add that he didn't know Claudia's secret at the time, but I don't think it would change his opinion much.)
I am not sure what you are saying about adopted vs. biological children, but I think anyone with adopted children in their family (or who is one) might take exception to the idea that biological children are automatically more loved.
I can see that. Just to clarify - I think Claudia did the best she could, and that Alex should forgive her, regardless of whatever Claudia has hidden from her.
Alex shouldn't (again, imho) forgive her father, who didn't do anything for her until recently. For some reason, she accepts him more easily than she does Claudia. Perhaps she is more deeply attached to Claudia, so secrets upset her more from that source.
While I do think that a biological bond plus an emotional bond can be stronger than a purely emotional bond, I also think it is stronger than a purely biological bond. These bonds influence each other, as we know from epigenetics that environment can influence one's biology as well.
I agree that an emotional bond is far more important than a biological bond. I think that not having that biological bond can be a weakness in a parent-child relationship, especially when you are talking about teenage years when the best of parents struggle with their kids.
It seems to me that that's what's happening with Alexandra - she loves her parents, but now she has two mothers AND fathers, all of whom she is going to express her independence from and connection to. I guess time will tell which bonds are stronger! For her mother, I think Claudia will win - nurture. For the father, I think Abraham Thorn will win - nature. So we're at an impasse.
It will be interesting to see what you decide to portray.
I guess this goes back to the other discussion about what makes a person who they are - just giving birth, taking care of Alex, and loving her, makes her her mother in my book. I accept that you don't agree.
She took care of Alex for what, like a day? Yeah, sorry, that's not enough in my book.
note: Anyway, you can't be telling me that Alex doesn't get to fix her mother; isn't there some kind of nondisclosure agreement for betas? :P Or, if she does fix her, she's a different person than when she was a cat (although she retains that transformative ability.)
Hey, all I've read is the fourth book; it's not like I know. ;) But considering Inverarity's habits when it comes to plot, I think it's highly likely Hecate's never coming back.
Sorry to hear that. Just to be clear, I was referring to the human relationship part, I was kidding. :)
Oh. Oops. Eh heh...heh.
Average good or average all others? It's the difference between being average as a student in preschool, and being an average student in PhD Philosophy at Harvard.
Then average all others.
When you say someone is an average mother, imo it's not enough that she doesn't abuse the kid and provides a physically safe environment so that they survive childhood with most limbs intact and minimal trauma. Such a kid will still have lots of problems. An average good mother, imho, is involved with her kids' lives, and doesn't just ignore unpleasant issues. She may not handle them perfectly well, but she doesn't neglect them either.
I agree with you. I don't mean average on any kind of objective scale; I mean average compared with all the others. As I said, there are a lot of bad mothers out there, far worse than Claudia.
I hope this is not frustrating you, as I recognize that my instinct in this area is pretty strong, so there's really no purpose arguing it. For example, the conversation over dinner in this chapter really got on my nerves (as much as I admired Inverarity's execution.) I consider Claudia a poor mother, perhaps she did her best but it wasn't good enough. It may not have been her fault - being a bad mother doesn't mean she's a bad person - but she's not a good mother, even an average good mother.
I tend to give Claudia a lot more leeway than most people, I think. It's important to remember that we only see her and Archie through Alex's point of view, and being a parent of a kid like Alexandra is not easy at the best of times. Claudia certainly does not handle everything perfectly, but given all the circumstances I think she overall does an OK job.
Given a choice between biological children and adoptive, or just one?
I don't understand the question.
Looking at a few paragraphs from your later post:
While I do think that a biological bond plus an emotional bond can be stronger than a purely emotional bond, I also think it is stronger than a purely biological bond. These bonds influence each other, as we know from epigenetics that environment can influence one's biology as well.
I agree that an emotional bond is far more important than a biological bond. I think that not having that biological bond can be a weakness in a parent-child relationship, especially when you are talking about teenage years when the best of parents struggle with their kids.
Well I don't think this is something we'll ever come to an agreement on, but I have to say I just plain disagree with this. I think it's entirely possible for an adoptive child to be just as loved as the most-loved biological child--yes, even in their teenage years. And I definitely think it's wrong to think of the lack of a biological bond as a "problem."
Not to say there aren't some unique issues with adoptive children, including deciding when and how to tell them they're adopted. But again, I just don't want to say to an adopted child "Sorry, but your relationship with your parent is inherently lacking in some fashion." Not that you'd ever say that of course...but I feel that's the logical consequence of your position.
She took care of Alex for what, like a day? Yeah, sorry, that's not enough in my book. Fine. :)
Hey, all I've read is the fourth book; it's not like I know. ;) But considering Inverarity's habits when it comes to plot, I think it's highly likely Hecate's never coming back. Got it. Well it would totally ruin the other stuff going on, in a way that can't be resolved in 4 chapters.
Then average all others. ... I agree with you. I don't mean average on any kind of objective scale; I mean average compared with all the others. As I said, there are a lot of bad mothers out there, far worse than Claudia. ...
I tend to give Claudia a lot more leeway than most people, I think. It's important to remember that we only see her and Archie through Alex's point of view, and being a parent of a kid like Alexandra is not easy at the best of times. Claudia certainly does not handle everything perfectly, but given all the circumstances I think she overall does an OK job.
I hear that, and good point about this being Alex's immature viewpoint. What determines a person's reaction to Claudia? I think it's largely a matter of personal experience. These things are set early in life, and its hard for someone raised in a less connected family to understand why someone raised in a more emotionally expressive family doesn't get their sense of family.
Given a choice between biological children and adoptive, or just one?
I don't understand the question. looking back, I don't understand it either. :) What I meant to say: If someone has one biological and one adopted child, I am not sure that they will have an equal relationship. Maybe they will. My instinct is that they won't. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm sure it depends on the individual.
(the above is my way of awkwardly ducking out of a debate)
Looking at a few paragraphs from your later post:
Well I don't think this is something we'll ever come to an agreement on, but I have to say I just plain disagree with this. I think it's entirely possible for an adoptive child to be just as loved as the most-loved biological child--yes, even in their teenage years. And I definitely think it's wrong to think of the lack of a biological bond as a "problem."
Not to say there aren't some unique issues with adoptive children, including deciding when and how to tell them they're adopted. But again, I just don't want to say to an adopted child "Sorry, but your relationship with your parent is inherently lacking in some fashion." Not that you'd ever say that of course...but I feel that's the logical consequence of your position. I don't think it's lacking - any more than any of my friendships could be considered to be lacking because I'm not their biological sister! I have no adopted siblings so this ia all hypothetical for me. For all I know, you're right and a child adopted at birth would pick up these same habits and peculiarities. If I would adopt a child, I hope to love them just the same and certainly ensure that the child would never feel different than my other children. But pretending the child isn't adopted shows that there is insecurity in the parent's part about their mothership, if they can't face the truth. And admitting the child is adopted is opening the door to a LOT of internal conflict as the kid gets older, and that conflict is only going to settle once the kid accepts both parents in some way - which is usually done by adopted kids finding out what happened to their bio parents. I think it wouldn't be as easy as being your parents' bio kid, either way.
What determines a person's reaction to Claudia? I think it's largely a matter of personal experience. These things are set early in life, and its hard for someone raised in a less connected family to understand why someone raised in a more emotionally expressive family doesn't get their sense of family.
I wouldn't say I was raised in a "less connected family." I had one very good parent and one very bad parent--so I think I saw something close to the full range of parenthood, as it were. Claudia isn't a good mother, but trust me, she's nowhere near being a bad mother. (And I wasn't physically/sexually abused, so I'm not talking about that--that kind of thing is just on a whole different scale. :/)
What I meant to say: If someone has one biological and one adopted child, I am not sure that they will have an equal relationship. Maybe they will. My instinct is that they won't. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm sure it depends on the individual.
(the above is my way of awkwardly ducking out of a debate)
Lol. Given we do have a cultural bias toward biological parenthood, it's likely that in the majority of cases the relationship won't be equal. But that's not an inherent thing; it's the product of the culture. Edit: IMO, at least.
But pretending the child isn't adopted shows that there is insecurity in the parent's part about their mothership, if they can't face the truth.
I agree. If I ever adopt a child I intend to let the child know they're adopted as soon as possible (assuming they don't already know).
And admitting the child is adopted is opening the door to a LOT of internal conflict as the kid gets older, and that conflict is only going to settle once the kid accepts both parents in some way - which is usually done by adopted kids finding out what happened to their bio parents.
Perhaps, but I don't think that internal conflict is inevitable. Certainly plenty of adopted children want to know their biological parent, but I'm not sure if that's an instinctual thing or because, again, we have a cultural assumption in favor of biological parenthood.
I think it wouldn't be as easy as being your parents' bio kid, either way.
I dunno about that. It's never easy being someone's kid, bio or not. ;)
Why does my opinion bother you so much?
Hmmm...that's an interesting question. I am not myself adopted, nor do I know anyone who is--so this debate is hypothetical for me as well.
After a relatively short bout of self-analysis, I'd say it's because of my beliefs regarding love, and perhaps emotions in general. Lots of people seem to think of love as some sort of overwhelming force that you have no choice but to get swept up into. But I think that you can choose to love or not to love, and indeed, a chosen love is much more likely to last and be real than a non-chosen one. And it's hard to find a better example of chosen love than adopting a child.
Plus, it does get annoying that foster children in fiction almost always seem to have angst about it, lol.
Do understand, I've never thought about this in this way or put it into these words before, so I may very well be missing the point completely.
Yeah thats basically the reason why I asked. I can't believe things are going to get wrapped up in 4 chapters. Its possible Alex is going to kill someone, maybe John, although I don't think she will use an AK, at least not based on what we know so far.
You know I don't understand this whole Biological bond/emotional bond idea in this case. After all Claudia is biologically related to Alex. Maybe the relationship dynamics would change, but if we were to go purely by biological relationship, then they are both related.
Not really, they are half-sisters. So yes there's some genetic connection, but depending on how similar they are, it could be very different or very like being a mother figure.
My comment is too long, so I'm putting in ellipses: I wouldn't say I was raised in a "less connected family." I had one very good parent and one very bad parent--so I think ...) Let's not just trust each others' assessments- I think we really do agree on this, just your scale of good is slightly lower than mine.
Lol. Given we do have a cultural bias toward biological parenthood, it's likely that in the majority of cases the relationship won't be equal. But that's not an inherent thing; it's the product of the culture. Edit: IMO, at least. There is definitely a cultural bias towards biological parenthood - and I would argue it comes from a biological bias towards ones' children. In the past, when food was scarce, children who were adopted or had step parents were at a severe disadvantage. Today it's not as evident. IMO, of course.
I agree. If I ever adopt a child I intend to let the child know they're adopted as soon as possible (assuming they don't already know). Right - by the age of 3 they should hear the word. But there's also no point drilling it into them. As with everything, there's a balance.
Perhaps, but I don't think that internal conflict is inevitable..... Whether wanting to know one's relatives is biological or cultural: there's an interesting study on twins where one dies in utero, the other tends to have attachment issues. (I once told my family about this over dinner, in detail - one sibling semi-jokingly commented that they always felt they were missing something. My mother was shocked, she said that child had had a twin who disappeared early in the pregnancy, she never thought about it.)
Think about it: One wants to know their parents to know who they could have become and what to expect from life. It is very sad when someone cannot find their biological parents or have a relationship, but we aren't sad because, oh, they could have adopted me and I would have had a better life, rather, they wish their parents were better. I don't think this is purely cultural, but like you said, it's an opinion.
I dunno about that. It's never easy being someone's kid, bio or not. ;) Maybe, it's certainly easier than being someone's parent!
Hmmm...that's an interesting question. I am not myself adopted, nor do I know anyone who is--so this debate is hypothetical for me as well. . I hear your point about chosen love, and why it would bother you that something thinks love is something you can't control. I definitely agree that love is a choice, in fact I'd go further and say that love comes from actions, not the other way around. (Actions again - I have to see something demonstrated or it means nothing to me.) OTOH, a biological mother has no choice, but she does have to keep the baby and work hard, even moving during the later months is often difficult. Whether she likes it or not, she learns to give and think of another being before herself, and this is the first kind of love a baby experiences. I believe this is a unique bond. Of course, I agree that an adopted child can have a wonderful bond, far better than they would have with their mother. But the potential is greater with a biological mother. That's all I'm saying.
Just noting - an adopted child can be related to you and you already know you have what it takes to support them, at least financially. I think a marriage is the best example of chosen love. One has to choose a person, then choose to love them.
Oh, and I do know something about the foster system - it is nothing like being adopted. I feel terrible for any child in that system, at least in the USA. Any angst they have is usually justified. But I don't read such stories and wouldn't know.
I'm not the greatest writer and can hardly complain over mis-statements by others (I only hate grammar and spelling mistakes, and make mistakes myself whenever I attempt to correct them, so I don't.)
There is definitely a cultural bias towards biological parenthood - and I would argue it comes from a biological bias towards ones' children. In the past, when food was scarce, children who were adopted or had step parents were at a severe disadvantage. Today it's not as evident. IMO, of course.
Well, if you want to go all ev-psych you could tell a story about how we evolved to better pass on our genes so that's the only reason why we love our children blah blah. But I don't put much stock in ev-psych as a rule--at least not when it's so simplified.
Culture and biology are so inextricably linked it almost doesn't make sense to talk about what the origin was. More important is whether or not we can change it, and I think we can. Biology isn't destiny.
Right - by the age of 3 they should hear the word. But there's also no point drilling it into them. As with everything, there's a balance.
Indeed. No need to go like "Pass the salt, adopted child of mine," lol.
[T]here's an interesting study on twins where one dies in utero, the other tends to have attachment issues.
Hmmm. I hadn't heard of that before--that is interesting. But I think that's less biology and more, um, really early life experience?
Think about it: One wants to know their parents to know who they could have become and what to expect from life. It is very sad when someone cannot find their biological parents or have a relationship, but we aren't sad because, oh, they could have adopted me and I would have had a better life, rather, they wish their parents were better. I don't think this is purely cultural, but like you said, it's an opinion.
I do feel sad as well thinking about someone being unable to find their biological parents, but again I don't know whether that's instinctual or not. Anyway, I have no problem with someone wanting to know their biological parents; but I also have no problem with someone not wanting to know their biological parents either. It's up to them.
(There's an interesting TV show called "Switched at Birth" that deals with these issues, among others...)
Maybe, it's certainly easier than being someone's parent!
Haha. Quite possibly. I'll have to try it out myself first and see.
I definitely agree that love is a choice, in fact I'd go further and say that love comes from actions, not the other way around.
Whether she likes it or not, she learns to give and think of another being before herself, and this is the first kind of love a baby experiences. I believe this is a unique bond.
I think plenty of people learn to think of another being before themselves without having to get pregnant.
Of course, I agree that an adopted child can have a wonderful bond, far better than they would have with their mother. But the potential is greater with a biological mother. That's all I'm saying.
Yeah, I know. You may be right. This is the kind of thing that's impossible to test, so we'll probably never know for sure.
I think a marriage is the best example of chosen love. One has to choose a person, then choose to love them.
Fair enough.
Oh, and I do know something about the foster system - it is nothing like being adopted. I feel terrible for any child in that system, at least in the USA.
Well, if you want to go all ev-psych you could tell a story about how we evolved to better pass on our genes so that's the only reason why we love our children blah blah. But I don't put much stock in ev-psych as a rule--at least not when it's so simplified.
Culture and biology are so inextricably linked it almost doesn't make sense to talk about what the origin was. More important is whether or not we can change it, and I think we can. Biology isn't destiny. True. It's a dinosaur or egg question, to use an evolutionary term. Agreed that it can be changed. Indeed. No need to go like "Pass the salt, adopted child of mine," lol. LOL
Hmmm. I hadn't heard of that before--that is interesting. But I think that's less biology and more, um, really early life experience? Before they're even supposed to remember life experience? I guess you could say it like that.
I do feel sad as well thinking about someone being unable to find their biological parents, but again I don't know whether that's instinctual or not. Anyway, I have no problem with someone wanting to know their biological parents; but I also have no problem with someone not wanting to know their biological parents either. It's up to them. rereading that I'm a bit horrified at how that sounded - I don't believe that feelings should be a base for an argument. As you mentioned, practically speaking, instinctual can be either bio or culture (or a million other things).
(There's an interesting TV show called "Switched at Birth" that deals with these issues, among others...) I only read. :)
Haha. Quite possibly. I'll have to try it out myself first and see. Yep. I never heard anyone say that raising kids was easier than being one, though.
I agree. You might enjoy this post. I did, thanks.
I think plenty of people learn to think of another being before themselves without having to get pregnant. Yes - they are usually good parents, but any parent has to.
Yeah, I know. You may be right. This is the kind of thing that's impossible to test, so we'll probably never know for sure. Precisely.
I wouldn't know. Surprised there isn't a TV show about that.
Before they're even supposed to remember life experience? I guess you could say it like that.
Well, I guess it depends on exactly when the twin, er, 'died.' If it was after the third trimester I can definitely see it...
rereading that I'm a bit horrified at how that sounded - I don't believe that feelings should be a base for an argument. As you mentioned, practically speaking, instinctual can be either bio or culture (or a million other things).
Actually, it's not so much that you used feelings as the basis for an argument, but that you used the fact that most people find not knowing your biological parent sad, which is fine (although that fact itself could use some evidence I suppose).
Yep. I never heard anyone say that raising kids was easier than being one, though.
I was joking, mostly. It does depend on who your parents are.
Yes - they are usually good parents, but any parent has to.
Agreed.
Surprised there isn't a TV show about that.
There probably is, but I haven't seen it at any rate.
Half sister is the same blood relationship as grandma/grandaughter and aunt/niece. It is common for grandmas and aunts and adoptive parents to love the childern. Claudia has HUGE issues with Wizarding World and with being stuck with Alex and having her career destroyed.
I score Claudia's mothering skills at 43%, she hain't as good as an average mother, but she hain't that bad.
"Alexandra is a 5th level magical fighter/3rd level rogue with a few levels in the badass prestige" Wrong: D&D wizard casts a dozen spells a day; HP wizard casts a dozen spells per minute. In D&D terms, HP wizard chidren start at 100th lvl or more.
Well, I guess it depends on exactly when the twin, er, 'died.' If it was after the third trimester I can definitely see it... The research mentioned this occurring even with twins that disappeared early. (My sibling's twin disappeared less than 2 weeks in the pregnancy.)
Actually, it's not so much that you used feelings as the basis for an argument, but that you used the fact that most people find not knowing your biological parent sad, which is fine (although that fact itself could use some evidence I suppose). Yes.
I was joking, mostly. It does depend on who your parents are. Everything depends. So no argument.
Well, it seems the discussion basically wound down, lol. Thanks, though--it was interesting! And I'm still not quite sure what to say about those "twin dying" studies.
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inverarity) wrote2012-04-27 07:33 am
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It's where Alexandra learns that people really do care about her and love her and she should be a little less hard on them.
Good name for AQATSA would be 'Book of Revelations'.
And I think we're going to have some revelations style stuff basically take place in Larkin Mills and the threat of BSG being light and fluffy in comparision, but only the threat.
Claudia dies in the next few chapters?
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(Anonymous) 2012-04-27 12:40 pm (UTC)(link)--Geneva
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(Anonymous) 2012-04-27 03:21 pm (UTC)(link)--Geneva
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response
Edit: I did not read the chapter before posting this!!
All of those are true. The fact remains that the rewards you get from a human/human relationship are of a much different kind than those you get from a human/cat relationship, which is all I was arguing. (And while I loved my cat, I have to say my human relationships were far more important to me.)
Agreed. But I'm with Alexandra on this one - her mother is NOT a cat. If nothing else, she can still speak and have short-term memories.
(Was that last meant to be in past tense?)
It is indeed hard to do scientific experiments in this area, lol. But yeah, except for differences in the relationship due to whatever differences the children might have (sex, looks, whatever impacts biology has on personality, etc.), I think the relationship would be the same.
There's no real point arguing this - I'm sure you can cherry-pick nature-nurture proofs at least as well as I can.
To be fair to Claudia, she does try to find out what's bothering Alex--she just gives up when Alex refuses to indulge. But I'm not sure that lots of hugs and kisses and deep emotional conversations are necessary to have a family be "bonded the way they should be"...
Right, she gives up. Now I am not a mother, but if a close friend or sibling was sulking for over 3 days, I would insist on finding out what is wrong. Maybe you're right, and there are plenty of less than involved mothers around, who would ignore it. So fine, perhaps Claudia is just not the best mother figure. But I personally think she has the potential to be an excellent mother, but lacks this bond with Alex who she always knew was not truly hers (particularly when she began displaying her magic).
I wouldn't experience something as family if it didn't include a certain level of warmth, but as you pointed out, maybe other families work differently.
I thought I wanted to go to law school, and it was suggested that I pick an analytic minor so I could appear well-rounded. Then I decided I didn't want to go to law school after all, but by then it was too late lol.
I get that. (thought I wanted to go into clinical neuroscience, ended up only liking the research part, got research experience, thrived on statistics, and ended up in statistics-focused research field.)
Unfortunately I live by myself so that option is closed for me. :( Well that and I do almost all my work on my computer so...
I have two computers: my netbook, for fun, and my work computer. I can't let myself use one for the other.
I actually don't think a person's memories make them who they are; Aisaacs might, but I think it's far more complicated than that. However in the case of amnesia, the entire question is whether "inventing the printing press" was an action done by the post-amnesia Gutenberg too, or whether it was only done by the pre-amnesia Gutenberg.
Your philosophical hairsplitting is confusing me. :) I think my point is that a person's memories are not the only thing that make them who they are, even according to you. I believe a person's actions make them who they are, but of course they are based on memories. So we both get to the same point by opposite directions. Did that make sense?
See you in a few weeks! I hope you accomplish everything you want to accomplish during your break from the internet. :)
Thanks, yes I did, my workload is now reduced to below crisis proportions.
and now for the chapter.
The annoying thing about commenting while you are still posting the story is that you never know when something will change.
You have a great sense of emotional dynamics.
Re: response
Sorry, but that's nowhere near enough to form anything like a meaningful relationship IMO. Parrots can do both those things.
(Was that last meant to be in past tense?)
Yeah, my cat died a while back. :(
There's no real point arguing this - I'm sure you can cherry-pick nature-nurture proofs at least as well as I can.
True enough. I tend to instinctively side on the "nurture" part when in doubt.
Right, she gives up. Now I am not a mother, but if a close friend or sibling was sulking for over 3 days, I would insist on finding out what is wrong. Maybe you're right, and there are plenty of less than involved mothers around, who would ignore it. So fine, perhaps Claudia is just not the best mother figure.
Claudia is most certainly not the best mother figure. :p There are plenty of bad mothers out there. I think Claudia's about average TBH.
But I personally think she has the potential to be an excellent mother, but lacks this bond with Alex who she always knew was not truly hers (particularly when she began displaying her magic).
That is entirely possible. But if that was the case, I don't think it's because Alex isn't hers biologically. Rather, it would more be a case of having Alex be forced on her without giving her much of a choice.
I just don't want to put myself into the position of having to say parents are necessarily less loving toward adoptive children than they would be to biological children.
I wouldn't experience something as family if it didn't include a certain level of warmth, but as you pointed out, maybe other families work differently.
It depends on what you mean by 'family.' There are plenty of families that are technically families, in that the people there are related by blood, but so lack in warmth we might want to say they're not "actually" families.
I get that. (thought I wanted to go into clinical neuroscience, ended up only liking the research part, got research experience, thrived on statistics, and ended up in statistics-focused research field.)
*nods* This is why I try not to plan my life in advance--you never know what might happen in one year, much less 10.
Your philosophical hairsplitting is confusing me. :)
Heh. You could say that the printing press was invented by "Gutenberg," just by the Gutenberg who existed before he got amnesia.
I think my point is that a person's memories are not the only thing that make them who they are, even according to you. I believe a person's actions make them who they are, but of course they are based on memories. So we both get to the same point by opposite directions. Did that make sense?
It makes perfect sense, and I agree. :)
Thanks, yes I did, my workload is now reduced to below crisis proportions.
Yay!
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I have this theory that Alex will use AK on John (either because he kills someone close to her or to prevent him from doing so) and then will be expelled/arrested.
On the other hand, I've guessed wrong about several plot developments in this book so far. Anyway, this has been a fantastic story and I am looking forward to reading the conclusion.
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(Anonymous) 2012-04-28 10:08 pm (UTC)(link)One major question I now have is what John's role is in the larger story. I.e., will he lead us back to Huckstein? Is he linked to another Voldemort type? Is he a Voldemort wannabe? Will Abraham Thorn make peace with the Confederation through a common fight against John? Will there be a three way confrontation? Or is John just there so Alex can show off and learn more in the process, a subplot, a gigantic subplot?
--Geneva
tealterror
"Sorry, but that's nowhere near enough to form anything like a meaningful relationship IMO. Parrots can do both those things."
I guess this goes back to the other discussion about what makes a person who they are - just giving birth, taking care of Alex, and loving her, makes her her mother in my book. I accept that you don't agree.
note: Anyway, you can't be telling me that Alex doesn't get to fix her mother; isn't there some kind of nondisclosure agreement for betas? :P
Or, if she does fix her, she's a different person than when she was a cat (although she retains that transformative ability.)
"Yeah, my cat died a while back. :("
Sorry to hear that. Just to be clear, I was referring to the human relationship part, I was kidding. :)
"True enough. I tend to instinctively side on the "nurture" part when in doubt."
I also have my instinctive reactions. See next:
"Claudia is most certainly not the best mother figure. :p There are plenty of bad mothers out there. I think Claudia's about average TBH."
Average good or average all others?
It's the difference between being average as a student in preschool, and being an average student in PhD Philosophy at Harvard. When you say someone is an average mother, imo it's not enough that she doesn't abuse the kid and provides a physically safe environment so that they survive childhood with most limbs intact and minimal trauma. Such a kid will still have lots of problems. An average good mother, imho, is involved with her kids' lives, and doesn't just ignore unpleasant issues. She may not handle them perfectly well, but she doesn't neglect them either.
I hope this is not frustrating you, as I recognize that my instinct in this area is pretty strong, so there's really no purpose arguing it. For example, the conversation over dinner in this chapter really got on my nerves (as much as I admired Inverarity's execution.) I consider Claudia a poor mother, perhaps she did her best but it wasn't good enough. It may not have been her fault - being a bad mother doesn't mean she's a bad person - but she's not a good mother, even an average good mother.
"That is entirely possible. But if that was the case, I don't think it's because Alex isn't hers biologically. Rather, it would more be a case of having Alex be forced on her without giving her much of a choice."
Makes sense to me.
"I just don't want to put myself into the position of having to say parents are necessarily less loving toward adoptive children than they would be to biological children."
Given a choice between biological children and adoptive, or just one?
"It depends on what you mean by 'family.' There are plenty of families that are technically families, in that the people there are related by blood, but so lack in warmth we might want to say they're not "actually" families."
Correct.
"Heh. You could say that the printing press was invented by "Gutenberg," just by the Gutenberg who existed before he got amnesia."
Got it, thanks. :)
"It makes perfect sense, and I agree. :)"
Great.
Claudia
(I should add that he didn't know Claudia's secret at the time, but I don't think it would change his opinion much.)
I am not sure what you are saying about adopted vs. biological children, but I think anyone with adopted children in their family (or who is one) might take exception to the idea that biological children are automatically more loved.
Re: Claudia
Just to clarify - I think Claudia did the best she could, and that Alex should forgive her, regardless of whatever Claudia has hidden from her.
Alex shouldn't (again, imho) forgive her father, who didn't do anything for her until recently. For some reason, she accepts him more easily than she does Claudia. Perhaps she is more deeply attached to Claudia, so secrets upset her more from that source.
While I do think that a biological bond plus an emotional bond can be stronger than a purely emotional bond, I also think it is stronger than a purely biological bond. These bonds influence each other, as we know from epigenetics that environment can influence one's biology as well.
I agree that an emotional bond is far more important than a biological bond. I think that not having that biological bond can be a weakness in a parent-child relationship, especially when you are talking about teenage years when the best of parents struggle with their kids.
It seems to me that that's what's happening with Alexandra - she loves her parents, but now she has two mothers AND fathers, all of whom she is going to express her independence from and connection to. I guess time will tell which bonds are stronger! For her mother, I think Claudia will win - nurture. For the father, I think Abraham Thorn will win - nature. So we're at an impasse.
It will be interesting to see what you decide to portray.
Re: tealterror
She took care of Alex for what, like a day? Yeah, sorry, that's not enough in my book.
note: Anyway, you can't be telling me that Alex doesn't get to fix her mother; isn't there some kind of nondisclosure agreement for betas? :P
Or, if she does fix her, she's a different person than when she was a cat (although she retains that transformative ability.)
Hey, all I've read is the fourth book; it's not like I know. ;) But considering Inverarity's habits when it comes to plot, I think it's highly likely Hecate's never coming back.
Sorry to hear that. Just to be clear, I was referring to the human relationship part, I was kidding. :)
Oh. Oops. Eh heh...heh.
Average good or average all others?
It's the difference between being average as a student in preschool, and being an average student in PhD Philosophy at Harvard.
Then average all others.
When you say someone is an average mother, imo it's not enough that she doesn't abuse the kid and provides a physically safe environment so that they survive childhood with most limbs intact and minimal trauma. Such a kid will still have lots of problems. An average good mother, imho, is involved with her kids' lives, and doesn't just ignore unpleasant issues. She may not handle them perfectly well, but she doesn't neglect them either.
I agree with you. I don't mean average on any kind of objective scale; I mean average compared with all the others. As I said, there are a lot of bad mothers out there, far worse than Claudia.
I hope this is not frustrating you, as I recognize that my instinct in this area is pretty strong, so there's really no purpose arguing it. For example, the conversation over dinner in this chapter really got on my nerves (as much as I admired Inverarity's execution.) I consider Claudia a poor mother, perhaps she did her best but it wasn't good enough. It may not have been her fault - being a bad mother doesn't mean she's a bad person - but she's not a good mother, even an average good mother.
I tend to give Claudia a lot more leeway than most people, I think. It's important to remember that we only see her and Archie through Alex's point of view, and being a parent of a kid like Alexandra is not easy at the best of times. Claudia certainly does not handle everything perfectly, but given all the circumstances I think she overall does an OK job.
Given a choice between biological children and adoptive, or just one?
I don't understand the question.
Looking at a few paragraphs from your later post:
While I do think that a biological bond plus an emotional bond can be stronger than a purely emotional bond, I also think it is stronger than a purely biological bond. These bonds influence each other, as we know from epigenetics that environment can influence one's biology as well.
I agree that an emotional bond is far more important than a biological bond. I think that not having that biological bond can be a weakness in a parent-child relationship, especially when you are talking about teenage years when the best of parents struggle with their kids.
Well I don't think this is something we'll ever come to an agreement on, but I have to say I just plain disagree with this. I think it's entirely possible for an adoptive child to be just as loved as the most-loved biological child--yes, even in their teenage years. And I definitely think it's wrong to think of the lack of a biological bond as a "problem."
Not to say there aren't some unique issues with adoptive children, including deciding when and how to tell them they're adopted. But again, I just don't want to say to an adopted child "Sorry, but your relationship with your parent is inherently lacking in some fashion." Not that you'd ever say that of course...but I feel that's the logical consequence of your position.
Re: tealterror
Fine. :)
Hey, all I've read is the fourth book; it's not like I know. ;) But considering Inverarity's habits when it comes to plot, I think it's highly likely Hecate's never coming back.
Got it. Well it would totally ruin the other stuff going on, in a way that can't be resolved in 4 chapters.
Then average all others.
...
I agree with you. I don't mean average on any kind of objective scale; I mean average compared with all the others. As I said, there are a lot of bad mothers out there, far worse than Claudia.
...
I tend to give Claudia a lot more leeway than most people, I think. It's important to remember that we only see her and Archie through Alex's point of view, and being a parent of a kid like Alexandra is not easy at the best of times. Claudia certainly does not handle everything perfectly, but given all the circumstances I think she overall does an OK job.
I hear that, and good point about this being Alex's immature viewpoint.
What determines a person's reaction to Claudia? I think it's largely a matter of personal experience. These things are set early in life, and its hard for someone raised in a less connected family to understand why someone raised in a more emotionally expressive family doesn't get their sense of family.
Given a choice between biological children and adoptive, or just one?
I don't understand the question.
looking back, I don't understand it either. :)
What I meant to say: If someone has one biological and one adopted child, I am not sure that they will have an equal relationship. Maybe they will. My instinct is that they won't. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm sure it depends on the individual.
(the above is my way of awkwardly ducking out of a debate)
Looking at a few paragraphs from your later post:
Well I don't think this is something we'll ever come to an agreement on, but I have to say I just plain disagree with this. I think it's entirely possible for an adoptive child to be just as loved as the most-loved biological child--yes, even in their teenage years. And I definitely think it's wrong to think of the lack of a biological bond as a "problem."
Not to say there aren't some unique issues with adoptive children, including deciding when and how to tell them they're adopted. But again, I just don't want to say to an adopted child "Sorry, but your relationship with your parent is inherently lacking in some fashion." Not that you'd ever say that of course...but I feel that's the logical consequence of your position.
I don't think it's lacking - any more than any of my friendships could be considered to be lacking because I'm not their biological sister! I have no adopted siblings so this ia all hypothetical for me. For all I know, you're right and a child adopted at birth would pick up these same habits and peculiarities. If I would adopt a child, I hope to love them just the same and certainly ensure that the child would never feel different than my other children. But pretending the child isn't adopted shows that there is insecurity in the parent's part about their mothership, if they can't face the truth. And admitting the child is adopted is opening the door to a LOT of internal conflict as the kid gets older, and that conflict is only going to settle once the kid accepts both parents in some way - which is usually done by adopted kids finding out what happened to their bio parents.
I think it wouldn't be as easy as being your parents' bio kid, either way.
Why does my opinion bother you so much?
Re: tealterror
I wouldn't say I was raised in a "less connected family." I had one very good parent and one very bad parent--so I think I saw something close to the full range of parenthood, as it were. Claudia isn't a good mother, but trust me, she's nowhere near being a bad mother. (And I wasn't physically/sexually abused, so I'm not talking about that--that kind of thing is just on a whole different scale. :/)
What I meant to say: If someone has one biological and one adopted child, I am not sure that they will have an equal relationship. Maybe they will. My instinct is that they won't. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm sure it depends on the individual.
(the above is my way of awkwardly ducking out of a debate)
Lol. Given we do have a cultural bias toward biological parenthood, it's likely that in the majority of cases the relationship won't be equal. But that's not an inherent thing; it's the product of the culture. Edit: IMO, at least.
But pretending the child isn't adopted shows that there is insecurity in the parent's part about their mothership, if they can't face the truth.
I agree. If I ever adopt a child I intend to let the child know they're adopted as soon as possible (assuming they don't already know).
And admitting the child is adopted is opening the door to a LOT of internal conflict as the kid gets older, and that conflict is only going to settle once the kid accepts both parents in some way - which is usually done by adopted kids finding out what happened to their bio parents.
Perhaps, but I don't think that internal conflict is inevitable. Certainly plenty of adopted children want to know their biological parent, but I'm not sure if that's an instinctual thing or because, again, we have a cultural assumption in favor of biological parenthood.
I think it wouldn't be as easy as being your parents' bio kid, either way.
I dunno about that. It's never easy being someone's kid, bio or not. ;)
Why does my opinion bother you so much?
Hmmm...that's an interesting question. I am not myself adopted, nor do I know anyone who is--so this debate is hypothetical for me as well.
After a relatively short bout of self-analysis, I'd say it's because of my beliefs regarding love, and perhaps emotions in general. Lots of people seem to think of love as some sort of overwhelming force that you have no choice but to get swept up into. But I think that you can choose to love or not to love, and indeed, a chosen love is much more likely to last and be real than a non-chosen one. And it's hard to find a better example of chosen love than adopting a child.
Plus, it does get annoying that foster children in fiction almost always seem to have angst about it, lol.
Do understand, I've never thought about this in this way or put it into these words before, so I may very well be missing the point completely.
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Re: Claudia
Re: Claudia
Re: tealterror
I wouldn't say I was raised in a "less connected family." I had one very good parent and one very bad parent--so I think ...)
Let's not just trust each others' assessments- I think we really do agree on this, just your scale of good is slightly lower than mine.
Lol. Given we do have a cultural bias toward biological parenthood, it's likely that in the majority of cases the relationship won't be equal. But that's not an inherent thing; it's the product of the culture. Edit: IMO, at least.
There is definitely a cultural bias towards biological parenthood - and I would argue it comes from a biological bias towards ones' children. In the past, when food was scarce, children who were adopted or had step parents were at a severe disadvantage. Today it's not as evident. IMO, of course.
I agree. If I ever adopt a child I intend to let the child know they're adopted as soon as possible (assuming they don't already know).
Right - by the age of 3 they should hear the word. But there's also no point drilling it into them. As with everything, there's a balance.
Perhaps, but I don't think that internal conflict is inevitable.....
Whether wanting to know one's relatives is biological or cultural: there's an interesting study on twins where one dies in utero, the other tends to have attachment issues. (I once told my family about this over dinner, in detail - one sibling semi-jokingly commented that they always felt they were missing something. My mother was shocked, she said that child had had a twin who disappeared early in the pregnancy, she never thought about it.)
Think about it: One wants to know their parents to know who they could have become and what to expect from life. It is very sad when someone cannot find their biological parents or have a relationship, but we aren't sad because, oh, they could have adopted me and I would have had a better life, rather, they wish their parents were better.
I don't think this is purely cultural, but like you said, it's an opinion.
I dunno about that. It's never easy being someone's kid, bio or not. ;)
Maybe, it's certainly easier than being someone's parent!
Hmmm...that's an interesting question. I am not myself adopted, nor do I know anyone who is--so this debate is hypothetical for me as well.
.
I hear your point about chosen love, and why it would bother you that something thinks love is something you can't control. I definitely agree that love is a choice, in fact I'd go further and say that love comes from actions, not the other way around. (Actions again - I have to see something demonstrated or it means nothing to me.)
OTOH, a biological mother has no choice, but she does have to keep the baby and work hard, even moving during the later months is often difficult. Whether she likes it or not, she learns to give and think of another being before herself, and this is the first kind of love a baby experiences. I believe this is a unique bond.
Of course, I agree that an adopted child can have a wonderful bond, far better than they would have with their mother. But the potential is greater with a biological mother. That's all I'm saying.
Just noting - an adopted child can be related to you and you already know you have what it takes to support them, at least financially. I think a marriage is the best example of chosen love. One has to choose a person, then choose to love them.
Oh, and I do know something about the foster system - it is nothing like being adopted. I feel terrible for any child in that system, at least in the USA. Any angst they have is usually justified. But I don't read such stories and wouldn't know.
I'm not the greatest writer and can hardly complain over mis-statements by others (I only hate grammar and spelling mistakes, and make mistakes myself whenever I attempt to correct them, so I don't.)
Re: tealterror
Well, if you want to go all ev-psych you could tell a story about how we evolved to better pass on our genes so that's the only reason why we love our children blah blah. But I don't put much stock in ev-psych as a rule--at least not when it's so simplified.
Culture and biology are so inextricably linked it almost doesn't make sense to talk about what the origin was. More important is whether or not we can change it, and I think we can. Biology isn't destiny.
Right - by the age of 3 they should hear the word. But there's also no point drilling it into them. As with everything, there's a balance.
Indeed. No need to go like "Pass the salt, adopted child of mine," lol.
[T]here's an interesting study on twins where one dies in utero, the other tends to have attachment issues.
Hmmm. I hadn't heard of that before--that is interesting. But I think that's less biology and more, um, really early life experience?
Think about it: One wants to know their parents to know who they could have become and what to expect from life. It is very sad when someone cannot find their biological parents or have a relationship, but we aren't sad because, oh, they could have adopted me and I would have had a better life, rather, they wish their parents were better.
I don't think this is purely cultural, but like you said, it's an opinion.
I do feel sad as well thinking about someone being unable to find their biological parents, but again I don't know whether that's instinctual or not. Anyway, I have no problem with someone wanting to know their biological parents; but I also have no problem with someone not wanting to know their biological parents either. It's up to them.
(There's an interesting TV show called "Switched at Birth" that deals with these issues, among others...)
Maybe, it's certainly easier than being someone's parent!
Haha. Quite possibly. I'll have to try it out myself first and see.
I definitely agree that love is a choice, in fact I'd go further and say that love comes from actions, not the other way around.
I agree. You might enjoy this post.
Whether she likes it or not, she learns to give and think of another being before herself, and this is the first kind of love a baby experiences. I believe this is a unique bond.
I think plenty of people learn to think of another being before themselves without having to get pregnant.
Of course, I agree that an adopted child can have a wonderful bond, far better than they would have with their mother. But the potential is greater with a biological mother. That's all I'm saying.
Yeah, I know. You may be right. This is the kind of thing that's impossible to test, so we'll probably never know for sure.
I think a marriage is the best example of chosen love. One has to choose a person, then choose to love them.
Fair enough.
Oh, and I do know something about the foster system - it is nothing like being adopted. I feel terrible for any child in that system, at least in the USA.
I wouldn't know.
Re: tealterror
Well, if you want to go all ev-psych you could tell a story about how we evolved to better pass on our genes so that's the only reason why we love our children blah blah. But I don't put much stock in ev-psych as a rule--at least not when it's so simplified.
Culture and biology are so inextricably linked it almost doesn't make sense to talk about what the origin was. More important is whether or not we can change it, and I think we can. Biology isn't destiny.
True. It's a dinosaur or egg question, to use an evolutionary term.
Agreed that it can be changed.
Indeed. No need to go like "Pass the salt, adopted child of mine," lol.
LOL
Hmmm. I hadn't heard of that before--that is interesting. But I think that's less biology and more, um, really early life experience?
Before they're even supposed to remember life experience? I guess you could say it like that.
I do feel sad as well thinking about someone being unable to find their biological parents, but again I don't know whether that's instinctual or not. Anyway, I have no problem with someone wanting to know their biological parents; but I also have no problem with someone not wanting to know their biological parents either. It's up to them.
rereading that I'm a bit horrified at how that sounded - I don't believe that feelings should be a base for an argument.
As you mentioned, practically speaking, instinctual can be either bio or culture (or a million other things).
(There's an interesting TV show called "Switched at Birth" that deals with these issues, among others...)
I only read. :)
Haha. Quite possibly. I'll have to try it out myself first and see.
Yep. I never heard anyone say that raising kids was easier than being one, though.
I agree. You might enjoy this post.
I did, thanks.
I think plenty of people learn to think of another being before themselves without having to get pregnant.
Yes - they are usually good parents, but any parent has to.
Yeah, I know. You may be right. This is the kind of thing that's impossible to test, so we'll probably never know for sure.
Precisely.
I wouldn't know.
Surprised there isn't a TV show about that.
Re: tealterror
Well, I guess it depends on exactly when the twin, er, 'died.' If it was after the third trimester I can definitely see it...
rereading that I'm a bit horrified at how that sounded - I don't believe that feelings should be a base for an argument.
As you mentioned, practically speaking, instinctual can be either bio or culture (or a million other things).
Actually, it's not so much that you used feelings as the basis for an argument, but that you used the fact that most people find not knowing your biological parent sad, which is fine (although that fact itself could use some evidence I suppose).
Yep. I never heard anyone say that raising kids was easier than being one, though.
I was joking, mostly. It does depend on who your parents are.
Yes - they are usually good parents, but any parent has to.
Agreed.
Surprised there isn't a TV show about that.
There probably is, but I haven't seen it at any rate.
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I score Claudia's mothering skills at 43%, she hain't as good as an average mother, but she hain't that bad.
"Alexandra is a 5th level magical fighter/3rd level rogue with a few levels in the badass prestige"
Wrong: D&D wizard casts a dozen spells a day; HP wizard casts a dozen spells per minute. In D&D terms, HP wizard chidren start at 100th lvl or more.
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Re: tealterror
The research mentioned this occurring even with twins that disappeared early. (My sibling's twin disappeared less than 2 weeks in the pregnancy.)
Actually, it's not so much that you used feelings as the basis for an argument, but that you used the fact that most people find not knowing your biological parent sad, which is fine (although that fact itself could use some evidence I suppose).
Yes.
I was joking, mostly. It does depend on who your parents are.
Everything depends. So no argument.
Re: tealterror
Re: tealterror
Yes, well, arguments don't have to last forever, that's what I always say. I like coming to a nice peaceful compromise. :)
Thank you too - I sincerely enjoyed it (and discovered that comment discussions are a great means of short term self-reward.)