My comment is too long, so I'm putting in ellipses: I wouldn't say I was raised in a "less connected family." I had one very good parent and one very bad parent--so I think ...) Let's not just trust each others' assessments- I think we really do agree on this, just your scale of good is slightly lower than mine.
Lol. Given we do have a cultural bias toward biological parenthood, it's likely that in the majority of cases the relationship won't be equal. But that's not an inherent thing; it's the product of the culture. Edit: IMO, at least. There is definitely a cultural bias towards biological parenthood - and I would argue it comes from a biological bias towards ones' children. In the past, when food was scarce, children who were adopted or had step parents were at a severe disadvantage. Today it's not as evident. IMO, of course.
I agree. If I ever adopt a child I intend to let the child know they're adopted as soon as possible (assuming they don't already know). Right - by the age of 3 they should hear the word. But there's also no point drilling it into them. As with everything, there's a balance.
Perhaps, but I don't think that internal conflict is inevitable..... Whether wanting to know one's relatives is biological or cultural: there's an interesting study on twins where one dies in utero, the other tends to have attachment issues. (I once told my family about this over dinner, in detail - one sibling semi-jokingly commented that they always felt they were missing something. My mother was shocked, she said that child had had a twin who disappeared early in the pregnancy, she never thought about it.)
Think about it: One wants to know their parents to know who they could have become and what to expect from life. It is very sad when someone cannot find their biological parents or have a relationship, but we aren't sad because, oh, they could have adopted me and I would have had a better life, rather, they wish their parents were better. I don't think this is purely cultural, but like you said, it's an opinion.
I dunno about that. It's never easy being someone's kid, bio or not. ;) Maybe, it's certainly easier than being someone's parent!
Hmmm...that's an interesting question. I am not myself adopted, nor do I know anyone who is--so this debate is hypothetical for me as well. . I hear your point about chosen love, and why it would bother you that something thinks love is something you can't control. I definitely agree that love is a choice, in fact I'd go further and say that love comes from actions, not the other way around. (Actions again - I have to see something demonstrated or it means nothing to me.) OTOH, a biological mother has no choice, but she does have to keep the baby and work hard, even moving during the later months is often difficult. Whether she likes it or not, she learns to give and think of another being before herself, and this is the first kind of love a baby experiences. I believe this is a unique bond. Of course, I agree that an adopted child can have a wonderful bond, far better than they would have with their mother. But the potential is greater with a biological mother. That's all I'm saying.
Just noting - an adopted child can be related to you and you already know you have what it takes to support them, at least financially. I think a marriage is the best example of chosen love. One has to choose a person, then choose to love them.
Oh, and I do know something about the foster system - it is nothing like being adopted. I feel terrible for any child in that system, at least in the USA. Any angst they have is usually justified. But I don't read such stories and wouldn't know.
I'm not the greatest writer and can hardly complain over mis-statements by others (I only hate grammar and spelling mistakes, and make mistakes myself whenever I attempt to correct them, so I don't.)
There is definitely a cultural bias towards biological parenthood - and I would argue it comes from a biological bias towards ones' children. In the past, when food was scarce, children who were adopted or had step parents were at a severe disadvantage. Today it's not as evident. IMO, of course.
Well, if you want to go all ev-psych you could tell a story about how we evolved to better pass on our genes so that's the only reason why we love our children blah blah. But I don't put much stock in ev-psych as a rule--at least not when it's so simplified.
Culture and biology are so inextricably linked it almost doesn't make sense to talk about what the origin was. More important is whether or not we can change it, and I think we can. Biology isn't destiny.
Right - by the age of 3 they should hear the word. But there's also no point drilling it into them. As with everything, there's a balance.
Indeed. No need to go like "Pass the salt, adopted child of mine," lol.
[T]here's an interesting study on twins where one dies in utero, the other tends to have attachment issues.
Hmmm. I hadn't heard of that before--that is interesting. But I think that's less biology and more, um, really early life experience?
Think about it: One wants to know their parents to know who they could have become and what to expect from life. It is very sad when someone cannot find their biological parents or have a relationship, but we aren't sad because, oh, they could have adopted me and I would have had a better life, rather, they wish their parents were better. I don't think this is purely cultural, but like you said, it's an opinion.
I do feel sad as well thinking about someone being unable to find their biological parents, but again I don't know whether that's instinctual or not. Anyway, I have no problem with someone wanting to know their biological parents; but I also have no problem with someone not wanting to know their biological parents either. It's up to them.
(There's an interesting TV show called "Switched at Birth" that deals with these issues, among others...)
Maybe, it's certainly easier than being someone's parent!
Haha. Quite possibly. I'll have to try it out myself first and see.
I definitely agree that love is a choice, in fact I'd go further and say that love comes from actions, not the other way around.
Whether she likes it or not, she learns to give and think of another being before herself, and this is the first kind of love a baby experiences. I believe this is a unique bond.
I think plenty of people learn to think of another being before themselves without having to get pregnant.
Of course, I agree that an adopted child can have a wonderful bond, far better than they would have with their mother. But the potential is greater with a biological mother. That's all I'm saying.
Yeah, I know. You may be right. This is the kind of thing that's impossible to test, so we'll probably never know for sure.
I think a marriage is the best example of chosen love. One has to choose a person, then choose to love them.
Fair enough.
Oh, and I do know something about the foster system - it is nothing like being adopted. I feel terrible for any child in that system, at least in the USA.
Well, if you want to go all ev-psych you could tell a story about how we evolved to better pass on our genes so that's the only reason why we love our children blah blah. But I don't put much stock in ev-psych as a rule--at least not when it's so simplified.
Culture and biology are so inextricably linked it almost doesn't make sense to talk about what the origin was. More important is whether or not we can change it, and I think we can. Biology isn't destiny. True. It's a dinosaur or egg question, to use an evolutionary term. Agreed that it can be changed. Indeed. No need to go like "Pass the salt, adopted child of mine," lol. LOL
Hmmm. I hadn't heard of that before--that is interesting. But I think that's less biology and more, um, really early life experience? Before they're even supposed to remember life experience? I guess you could say it like that.
I do feel sad as well thinking about someone being unable to find their biological parents, but again I don't know whether that's instinctual or not. Anyway, I have no problem with someone wanting to know their biological parents; but I also have no problem with someone not wanting to know their biological parents either. It's up to them. rereading that I'm a bit horrified at how that sounded - I don't believe that feelings should be a base for an argument. As you mentioned, practically speaking, instinctual can be either bio or culture (or a million other things).
(There's an interesting TV show called "Switched at Birth" that deals with these issues, among others...) I only read. :)
Haha. Quite possibly. I'll have to try it out myself first and see. Yep. I never heard anyone say that raising kids was easier than being one, though.
I agree. You might enjoy this post. I did, thanks.
I think plenty of people learn to think of another being before themselves without having to get pregnant. Yes - they are usually good parents, but any parent has to.
Yeah, I know. You may be right. This is the kind of thing that's impossible to test, so we'll probably never know for sure. Precisely.
I wouldn't know. Surprised there isn't a TV show about that.
Before they're even supposed to remember life experience? I guess you could say it like that.
Well, I guess it depends on exactly when the twin, er, 'died.' If it was after the third trimester I can definitely see it...
rereading that I'm a bit horrified at how that sounded - I don't believe that feelings should be a base for an argument. As you mentioned, practically speaking, instinctual can be either bio or culture (or a million other things).
Actually, it's not so much that you used feelings as the basis for an argument, but that you used the fact that most people find not knowing your biological parent sad, which is fine (although that fact itself could use some evidence I suppose).
Yep. I never heard anyone say that raising kids was easier than being one, though.
I was joking, mostly. It does depend on who your parents are.
Yes - they are usually good parents, but any parent has to.
Agreed.
Surprised there isn't a TV show about that.
There probably is, but I haven't seen it at any rate.
Well, I guess it depends on exactly when the twin, er, 'died.' If it was after the third trimester I can definitely see it... The research mentioned this occurring even with twins that disappeared early. (My sibling's twin disappeared less than 2 weeks in the pregnancy.)
Actually, it's not so much that you used feelings as the basis for an argument, but that you used the fact that most people find not knowing your biological parent sad, which is fine (although that fact itself could use some evidence I suppose). Yes.
I was joking, mostly. It does depend on who your parents are. Everything depends. So no argument.
Well, it seems the discussion basically wound down, lol. Thanks, though--it was interesting! And I'm still not quite sure what to say about those "twin dying" studies.
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branchandroot
Re: tealterror
Date: 2012-04-29 06:45 pm (UTC)I wouldn't say I was raised in a "less connected family." I had one very good parent and one very bad parent--so I think ...)
Let's not just trust each others' assessments- I think we really do agree on this, just your scale of good is slightly lower than mine.
Lol. Given we do have a cultural bias toward biological parenthood, it's likely that in the majority of cases the relationship won't be equal. But that's not an inherent thing; it's the product of the culture. Edit: IMO, at least.
There is definitely a cultural bias towards biological parenthood - and I would argue it comes from a biological bias towards ones' children. In the past, when food was scarce, children who were adopted or had step parents were at a severe disadvantage. Today it's not as evident. IMO, of course.
I agree. If I ever adopt a child I intend to let the child know they're adopted as soon as possible (assuming they don't already know).
Right - by the age of 3 they should hear the word. But there's also no point drilling it into them. As with everything, there's a balance.
Perhaps, but I don't think that internal conflict is inevitable.....
Whether wanting to know one's relatives is biological or cultural: there's an interesting study on twins where one dies in utero, the other tends to have attachment issues. (I once told my family about this over dinner, in detail - one sibling semi-jokingly commented that they always felt they were missing something. My mother was shocked, she said that child had had a twin who disappeared early in the pregnancy, she never thought about it.)
Think about it: One wants to know their parents to know who they could have become and what to expect from life. It is very sad when someone cannot find their biological parents or have a relationship, but we aren't sad because, oh, they could have adopted me and I would have had a better life, rather, they wish their parents were better.
I don't think this is purely cultural, but like you said, it's an opinion.
I dunno about that. It's never easy being someone's kid, bio or not. ;)
Maybe, it's certainly easier than being someone's parent!
Hmmm...that's an interesting question. I am not myself adopted, nor do I know anyone who is--so this debate is hypothetical for me as well.
.
I hear your point about chosen love, and why it would bother you that something thinks love is something you can't control. I definitely agree that love is a choice, in fact I'd go further and say that love comes from actions, not the other way around. (Actions again - I have to see something demonstrated or it means nothing to me.)
OTOH, a biological mother has no choice, but she does have to keep the baby and work hard, even moving during the later months is often difficult. Whether she likes it or not, she learns to give and think of another being before herself, and this is the first kind of love a baby experiences. I believe this is a unique bond.
Of course, I agree that an adopted child can have a wonderful bond, far better than they would have with their mother. But the potential is greater with a biological mother. That's all I'm saying.
Just noting - an adopted child can be related to you and you already know you have what it takes to support them, at least financially. I think a marriage is the best example of chosen love. One has to choose a person, then choose to love them.
Oh, and I do know something about the foster system - it is nothing like being adopted. I feel terrible for any child in that system, at least in the USA. Any angst they have is usually justified. But I don't read such stories and wouldn't know.
I'm not the greatest writer and can hardly complain over mis-statements by others (I only hate grammar and spelling mistakes, and make mistakes myself whenever I attempt to correct them, so I don't.)
Re: tealterror
Date: 2012-04-29 08:30 pm (UTC)Well, if you want to go all ev-psych you could tell a story about how we evolved to better pass on our genes so that's the only reason why we love our children blah blah. But I don't put much stock in ev-psych as a rule--at least not when it's so simplified.
Culture and biology are so inextricably linked it almost doesn't make sense to talk about what the origin was. More important is whether or not we can change it, and I think we can. Biology isn't destiny.
Right - by the age of 3 they should hear the word. But there's also no point drilling it into them. As with everything, there's a balance.
Indeed. No need to go like "Pass the salt, adopted child of mine," lol.
[T]here's an interesting study on twins where one dies in utero, the other tends to have attachment issues.
Hmmm. I hadn't heard of that before--that is interesting. But I think that's less biology and more, um, really early life experience?
Think about it: One wants to know their parents to know who they could have become and what to expect from life. It is very sad when someone cannot find their biological parents or have a relationship, but we aren't sad because, oh, they could have adopted me and I would have had a better life, rather, they wish their parents were better.
I don't think this is purely cultural, but like you said, it's an opinion.
I do feel sad as well thinking about someone being unable to find their biological parents, but again I don't know whether that's instinctual or not. Anyway, I have no problem with someone wanting to know their biological parents; but I also have no problem with someone not wanting to know their biological parents either. It's up to them.
(There's an interesting TV show called "Switched at Birth" that deals with these issues, among others...)
Maybe, it's certainly easier than being someone's parent!
Haha. Quite possibly. I'll have to try it out myself first and see.
I definitely agree that love is a choice, in fact I'd go further and say that love comes from actions, not the other way around.
I agree. You might enjoy this post.
Whether she likes it or not, she learns to give and think of another being before herself, and this is the first kind of love a baby experiences. I believe this is a unique bond.
I think plenty of people learn to think of another being before themselves without having to get pregnant.
Of course, I agree that an adopted child can have a wonderful bond, far better than they would have with their mother. But the potential is greater with a biological mother. That's all I'm saying.
Yeah, I know. You may be right. This is the kind of thing that's impossible to test, so we'll probably never know for sure.
I think a marriage is the best example of chosen love. One has to choose a person, then choose to love them.
Fair enough.
Oh, and I do know something about the foster system - it is nothing like being adopted. I feel terrible for any child in that system, at least in the USA.
I wouldn't know.
Re: tealterror
Date: 2012-04-29 08:43 pm (UTC)Well, if you want to go all ev-psych you could tell a story about how we evolved to better pass on our genes so that's the only reason why we love our children blah blah. But I don't put much stock in ev-psych as a rule--at least not when it's so simplified.
Culture and biology are so inextricably linked it almost doesn't make sense to talk about what the origin was. More important is whether or not we can change it, and I think we can. Biology isn't destiny.
True. It's a dinosaur or egg question, to use an evolutionary term.
Agreed that it can be changed.
Indeed. No need to go like "Pass the salt, adopted child of mine," lol.
LOL
Hmmm. I hadn't heard of that before--that is interesting. But I think that's less biology and more, um, really early life experience?
Before they're even supposed to remember life experience? I guess you could say it like that.
I do feel sad as well thinking about someone being unable to find their biological parents, but again I don't know whether that's instinctual or not. Anyway, I have no problem with someone wanting to know their biological parents; but I also have no problem with someone not wanting to know their biological parents either. It's up to them.
rereading that I'm a bit horrified at how that sounded - I don't believe that feelings should be a base for an argument.
As you mentioned, practically speaking, instinctual can be either bio or culture (or a million other things).
(There's an interesting TV show called "Switched at Birth" that deals with these issues, among others...)
I only read. :)
Haha. Quite possibly. I'll have to try it out myself first and see.
Yep. I never heard anyone say that raising kids was easier than being one, though.
I agree. You might enjoy this post.
I did, thanks.
I think plenty of people learn to think of another being before themselves without having to get pregnant.
Yes - they are usually good parents, but any parent has to.
Yeah, I know. You may be right. This is the kind of thing that's impossible to test, so we'll probably never know for sure.
Precisely.
I wouldn't know.
Surprised there isn't a TV show about that.
Re: tealterror
Date: 2012-04-29 10:02 pm (UTC)Well, I guess it depends on exactly when the twin, er, 'died.' If it was after the third trimester I can definitely see it...
rereading that I'm a bit horrified at how that sounded - I don't believe that feelings should be a base for an argument.
As you mentioned, practically speaking, instinctual can be either bio or culture (or a million other things).
Actually, it's not so much that you used feelings as the basis for an argument, but that you used the fact that most people find not knowing your biological parent sad, which is fine (although that fact itself could use some evidence I suppose).
Yep. I never heard anyone say that raising kids was easier than being one, though.
I was joking, mostly. It does depend on who your parents are.
Yes - they are usually good parents, but any parent has to.
Agreed.
Surprised there isn't a TV show about that.
There probably is, but I haven't seen it at any rate.
Re: tealterror
Date: 2012-04-30 07:32 pm (UTC)The research mentioned this occurring even with twins that disappeared early. (My sibling's twin disappeared less than 2 weeks in the pregnancy.)
Actually, it's not so much that you used feelings as the basis for an argument, but that you used the fact that most people find not knowing your biological parent sad, which is fine (although that fact itself could use some evidence I suppose).
Yes.
I was joking, mostly. It does depend on who your parents are.
Everything depends. So no argument.
Re: tealterror
Date: 2012-05-01 03:30 am (UTC)Re: tealterror
Date: 2012-05-01 03:34 am (UTC)Yes, well, arguments don't have to last forever, that's what I always say. I like coming to a nice peaceful compromise. :)
Thank you too - I sincerely enjoyed it (and discovered that comment discussions are a great means of short term self-reward.)