responding to your two numbered questions: 2) deemphasizing is relative. When you compare your average work of fiction, HP puts forward a very different set of values. Which brings me to your other question: 1) well, if you want to explore homosexual love, or, more to the point, how others react to homosexuality, then Inverarity is definitely providing a cogent way to do it. Based on one's value judgments, one may go the same or a different route. But as I had posted, I felt - for me and from my miopic perspective of what is really absent in literature and society nowadays - that one remarkable feauture of HP was that it provided a backdrop for a different set of much more traditional values and turned that into an exciting story. To keep millions and millions of YA reading, along with their parents, without feeling the need to rate it R, is in my opinion a great achievement. Hollywood has intentionally tried to push many boundaries to the point where, instead of reflecting society, it shapes society (take as a small example the acceptance of swearing, which was clearly very much impacted by Hollywood). JKR pushed in a different direction, which many others do, but JKR had an unparallelled success, thus impacting popular imagination. I liked that, a lot.
And the fact I find some of Hogwarts to correspond to my own experiences as a teenager - boarding school, with teachers and a principal that were more gurus than teachers, with all the social aspects surrounding that, made the HP series all the more pleasurable to read, for me, my spouse and now hopefully my kids.
In the AQ series, I found many of the same aspects, along with many idiosyncracies that are cute, interesting, or often more nuanced than HP. I often liked it, but sometimes it feels like certain scenes are tacked on because they almost must. The Max Martin post facto interpretation seems like that to me. Not central to the plot, until now not really woven in at all, really as if a book cannot be complete without a gay character and a desire to have Alexandra say what the author would likely want to say in the same situation.
And since what draws me to reading fantasy novels is really the fantasy part, here magic and how it impacts decisions, and since the major plot is Alexandra discovering Abraham Thorn's motives and in her still limited life deciding where she stands and how she gets where she needs or wants to go, I really want to read about that, with all the supporting scenes.
Now it could be that in future books, the gay theme will be much more woven into the fabric of the books. Then, we might even discover many different ways of reacting sensibly to encounter with homosexual love (Alex's is not the only sensible way to deal with it - Torvald was not necessarily bigoted, and there are X shades in between). But for now, it doesn't seem to fit seamlessly in the story.
That said, when rereading AQ2, I do find interesting forward references to many different plts. Read, for example, AT's first conversation with Alex, and you will see that he is made to very consciously choose his words so as to remain truthful without lying about Hecate. It's is not always clear if he is talking about Claudia or Hecate, intentional ambiguity - a stroke of genius, Inverarity.
Well, if the homosexuality seems tacked on and extraneous, I'll accept that as a flaw in my execution. There are lots of things I throw into AQ because they seem like good ideas to me, which is the license fan fiction writers have. A professional editor would no doubt chop a lot of my details and subplots if AQ were being published.
FWIW, though, I didn't sit down and say "AQ needs a message about homosexuality and diversity, so who shall I make gay?"
A professional editor would no doubt chop a lot of my details and subplots if AQ were being published.
It's so good, not much would change, and I'd be sorry for some of the material that would disappear (the descriptions in the Lands Below, for example, while tedious, really did contribute a lot to the mood that befits those scenes).
I find this discussion very interesting. I didn't feel that Inverarity tacked it on at all - while I didn't like it back when you revealed Max, it really Americanized the feel of the book to me.
I've worked with teenagers and let's face it, these are the topics that occupy their consciousness, and you do a great job describing the general craziness! My mother says - Teenagehood is the closest you get to psychosis. Alexandra's obsessions and hit and miss maturity level are a great parallel to many creative and talented kids who tend to take on too much. And I loved the scene where Alex described her dating life with Constance and Forbearance, you really got the dynamics perfectly, when there are a few "good" girls who, for whatever reason, are respected by the others and there's this urge to tempt them, but also to protect them.
Thanks for not getting too explicit, though... leave something for the meta-fanfiction.
(Tealterror - I plan to respond to your last comment on tomorrow's response thread.)
I think we just come from a fundamental different standpoint here. The "traditional values" that were infused in HP, which I agree are there, are IMO one of the series's greatest weaknesses. Maybe it's a function of my childhood, or my political views, but the lack of major non-white characters, the lack of any sexuality other than PG13-rated cisgendered straightness, the lack of many powerful female authority figures, and many more, are all weaknesses--huge ones.
However, aside from that--which we can't really argue about--I honestly do have an issue with you emphasizing "the gay theme." It's not a theme. A few characters are gay. That's reality. At the least, it takes u[ far less space than "the straight theme," but I have yet to hear you complain about that.
P.S.: Torvald was most certainly bigoted, whatever you think of Alex's reaction.
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branchandroot
no subject
Date: 2012-04-26 11:49 am (UTC)2) deemphasizing is relative. When you compare your average work of fiction, HP puts forward a very different set of values. Which brings me to your other question:
1) well, if you want to explore homosexual love, or, more to the point, how others react to homosexuality, then Inverarity is definitely providing a cogent way to do it. Based on one's value judgments, one may go the same or a different route. But as I had posted, I felt - for me and from my miopic perspective of what is really absent in literature and society nowadays - that one remarkable feauture of HP was that it provided a backdrop for a different set of much more traditional values and turned that into an exciting story. To keep millions and millions of YA reading, along with their parents, without feeling the need to rate it R, is in my opinion a great achievement. Hollywood has intentionally tried to push many boundaries to the point where, instead of reflecting society, it shapes society (take as a small example the acceptance of swearing, which was clearly very much impacted by Hollywood). JKR pushed in a different direction, which many others do, but JKR had an unparallelled success, thus impacting popular imagination. I liked that, a lot.
And the fact I find some of Hogwarts to correspond to my own experiences as a teenager - boarding school, with teachers and a principal that were more gurus than teachers, with all the social aspects surrounding that, made the HP series all the more pleasurable to read, for me, my spouse and now hopefully my kids.
In the AQ series, I found many of the same aspects, along with many idiosyncracies that are cute, interesting, or often more nuanced than HP. I often liked it, but sometimes it feels like certain scenes are tacked on because they almost must. The Max Martin post facto interpretation seems like that to me. Not central to the plot, until now not really woven in at all, really as if a book cannot be complete without a gay character and a desire to have Alexandra say what the author would likely want to say in the same situation.
And since what draws me to reading fantasy novels is really the fantasy part, here magic and how it impacts decisions, and since the major plot is Alexandra discovering Abraham Thorn's motives and in her still limited life deciding where she stands and how she gets where she needs or wants to go, I really want to read about that, with all the supporting scenes.
Now it could be that in future books, the gay theme will be much more woven into the fabric of the books. Then, we might even discover many different ways of reacting sensibly to encounter with homosexual love (Alex's is not the only sensible way to deal with it - Torvald was not necessarily bigoted, and there are X shades in between). But for now, it doesn't seem to fit seamlessly in the story.
That said, when rereading AQ2, I do find interesting forward references to many different plts. Read, for example, AT's first conversation with Alex, and you will see that he is made to very consciously choose his words so as to remain truthful without lying about Hecate. It's is not always clear if he is talking about Claudia or Hecate, intentional ambiguity - a stroke of genius, Inverarity.
--Geneva
no subject
Date: 2012-04-26 12:28 pm (UTC)FWIW, though, I didn't sit down and say "AQ needs a message about homosexuality and diversity, so who shall I make gay?"
no subject
Date: 2012-04-26 01:55 pm (UTC)It's so good, not much would change, and I'd be sorry for some of the material that would disappear (the descriptions in the Lands Below, for example, while tedious, really did contribute a lot to the mood that befits those scenes).
--Geneva
Glad to hear that
Date: 2012-04-26 03:05 pm (UTC)I've worked with teenagers and let's face it, these are the topics that occupy their consciousness, and you do a great job describing the general craziness! My mother says - Teenagehood is the closest you get to psychosis. Alexandra's obsessions and hit and miss maturity level are a great parallel to many creative and talented kids who tend to take on too much. And I loved the scene where Alex described her dating life with Constance and Forbearance, you really got the dynamics perfectly, when there are a few "good" girls who, for whatever reason, are respected by the others and there's this urge to tempt them, but also to protect them.
Thanks for not getting too explicit, though... leave something for the meta-fanfiction.
(Tealterror - I plan to respond to your last comment on tomorrow's response thread.)
Re: Glad to hear that
Date: 2012-04-26 11:57 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-04-26 11:57 pm (UTC)However, aside from that--which we can't really argue about--I honestly do have an issue with you emphasizing "the gay theme." It's not a theme. A few characters are gay. That's reality. At the least, it takes u[ far less space than "the straight theme," but I have yet to hear you complain about that.
P.S.: Torvald was most certainly bigoted, whatever you think of Alex's reaction.